14 replies to this topic

[MaxStPolish]

Side question, is there an omaha converter out here? FTR never seems to work. Anyways, the table is playing pretty ABC, only thing notable in this hand is that Initmo is a supernova. Shoulda folded preflop, but once we get past that point........PokerStars Game #34587520537: Tournament #207421088, $15+$1 USD Omaha Hi/Lo Pot Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2009/10/27 21:07:25 ETTable '207421088 1' 9-max Seat #9 is the buttonSeat 1: MaxStPolish (1170 in chips) Seat 2: johar07 (1360 in chips) Seat 3: zenman (1580 in chips) Seat 5: lnitmo (1415 in chips) Seat 6: stinger630 (1410 in chips) Seat 8: PlayaAAK8 (2665 in chips) Seat 9: oneHopless (3900 in chips) MaxStPolish: posts small blind 25johar07: posts big blind 50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to MaxStPolish [4c 2d 7d 4s]zenman: folds lnitmo: raises 100 to 150stinger630: folds PlayaAAK8: folds oneHopless: calls 150MaxStPolish: calls 125johar07: calls 100*** FLOP *** [Js Kd 9h]MaxStPolish: checks johar07: checks lnitmo: bets 300oneHopless: folds MaxStPolish:????

[Shark527]

You have no Lo draw and your high hand has as good a chance to win as a lottery ticket.If your thinking shove because of his small flop bet and that you could possibly pick up the pot, I'd just dump it. You still have another player behind to act. I don't think the juice is worth this squeeze.

[MaxStPolish]

My thoughts for posting this in general and even thinking-twice of a shove situation here is that Initmo is clearly a thinking player. I'm coming in for a reduced price on the flop as is the BB, which theoretically opens up our ranges. Being the preflop raiser Initmo is most likely to have a smorgasboard of low cards or like AAxx. He puts out a feeler c-bet, and the other non-blind player folds. Now, in my head unless the BB has 99,JJ,KK,TQ, or maybe KJ or K9, he's out of this hand. I feel like he would also have fired some sort of bet out with most of these holdings as well.If I can pop him out (likely), it'll be on Initmo to have to call me and show down....and i just don't think much to any of his pre-flop raise range does that here. Just one of those few times in PLO/8 that I started thinking a brash steal in the face of two villains with no personal showdown value may actually be right, i dunno. Just started really thinking about it after the fact.

[rrumsey]

you may or may not be able to get past villain. There is no low draw, which is good for you, and villain will be hard pressed to even call with anything short of top two, even that may be hard for him. If you wanna be in the business of turning your hand into a bluff this may be a good spot bc it kind of is possible for you to have q10 in your hand because like you said your range is so wide here and he knows this, so he is going to have to give you credit for two pair at the very least, most likely set or st8 .he only problem i see with bluff shove here is with 900 in the pot and you shoving about 1000 you kind of deny odds to call, but it is still a little close to the pot. I think you could a good amount of the time pick the hand up here thou, but it is rather risky and bold to do soI think the bluff works slightly better if you are just a little more deep so he is getting like 1.5 to 1 on a call he is getting like 1.9 to 1 on a call

[MaxStPolish]

rrumsey, on Wednesday, October 28th, 2009, 8:06 AM, said:

you may or may not be able to get past villain. There is no low draw, which is good for you, and villain will be hard pressed to even call with anything short of top two, even that may be hard for him. If you wanna be in the business of turning your hand into a bluff this may be a good spot bc it kind of is possible for you to have q10 in your hand because like you said your range is so wide here and he knows this, so he is going to have to give you credit for two pair at the very least, most likely set or st8 .he only problem i see with bluff shove here is with 900 in the pot and you shoving about 1000 you kind of deny odds to call, but it is still a little close to the pot. I think you could a good amount of the time pick the hand up here thou, but it is rather risky and bold to do soI think the bluff works slightly better if you are just a little more deep so he is getting like 1.5 to 1 on a call he is getting like 1.9 to 1 on a call

This is my exact thought. This is PLO/8. This is a supernova regular. He isn't raising pre-flop with 99/JJ/KK/KJ/K9/TQ with any sort of regularity, if ever. I think shark's right on in that it's a dangerous line with another villain still to act behind me. I think he's the biggest ??, in that he also came in on the blind for a reduced price. That said, unless he was truly trapping with the TQ himself, what can he call here? He'd be dealing with a bet and an all-in raise. Do you call that with anything other than maybe a set or the TQ?? Prolly not. The fact that this flop eliminates the low, coupled with the 1/2 c-bet by the PFR, who is a thinking player, just really felt like a legitimate steal opporunity in a game that it is very rare to ever stray from semi-bluffing at most. Other thoughts?

[SwolyswoND]

MaxStPolish, on Wednesday, October 28th, 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

This is my exact thought. This is PLO/8. This is a supernova regular. He isn't raising pre-flop with 99/JJ/KK/KJ/K9/TQ with any sort of regularity, if ever.

He is almost certainly raising that entire range, save maybe 99 and K9, if it's paired with A2. Don't overthink yourself here, this should be an easy fold.

[rrumsey]

it should be a fold but the question is can we turn it into a good bluff and i think the answer is yes

[MaxStPolish]

SwolyswoND, on Wednesday, October 28th, 2009, 3:31 PM, said:

He is almost certainly raising that entire range, save maybe 99 and K9, if it's paired with A2. Don't overthink yourself here, this should be an easy fold.

Sure, ATC fits his "range" when we infer that it is coupled with A2 in PLO/8. I get what you are saying here, basically reiterating that PLO/8 is an ABC game pure bluffs really don't make sense like ever. But when supernova raises pre and then fires a half bet c-bet...I'm pretty sure a 1000 chip all in check raise shove plays off these same ABC beliefs and pretty much defines my hand as TQxx. I mean he could post his end of this story on a board and say, so I have AK2X or AA2X, etc. etc. and make this play, what do i do to this shove......and every single person is going to say fold.

[rrumsey]

MaxStPolish, on Wednesday, October 28th, 2009, 3:23 PM, said:

Sure, ATC fits his "range" when we infer that it is coupled with A2 in PLO/8. I get what you are saying here, basically reiterating that PLO/8 is an ABC game pure bluffs really don't make sense like ever. But when supernova raises pre and then fires a half bet c-bet...I'm pretty sure a 1000 chip all in check raise shove plays off these same ABC beliefs and pretty much defines my hand as TQxx. I mean he could post his end of this story on a board and say, so I have AK2X or AA2X, etc. etc. and make this play, what do i do to this shove......and every single person is going to say fold.

look at ti from villains view. He most likely had a good starting hand preflop, made a standard cbet, and had the worst thing happen, I mean we may be able to move him off of a lot the board is very wet for st8's and sets, very weak for flushes, He is hard pressed to hero call with 2 pair even bc he is going to think he has 4 outs, maybe and could be drawing dead (or what he thinks). The only thing that would seal this as a good turning you hand into a bluff play would be if you were running very tight so far, we could get villain to fold literally 80%-90& of the time then, and take down a big pot. If our image is bad we never think about this.

[MaxStPolish]

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[rrumsey]

is anyone else going to comment this is a pretty interesting line as far as im concerned???>>>>>>

[dingas]

rrumsey, on Thursday, October 29th, 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

is anyone else going to comment this is a pretty interesting line as far as im concerned???>>>>>>

Not really much to comment on. The check-raise bluff will work x% of the time, but it is difficult to quantify what x is... The only way to find out if this is a good play is to start making check-raises in these spots and see what happens. Either way, trying different lines sharpens your game and helps keep poker interesting, so I say go for it.

[rrumsey]

i mean go read some red pro forum on poker road this kind of thing is something i have seen pro's discuss in hands so i was hoping someone would try and help come up with a call range for villain. I mean it is pretty small, his range is pretty wide, and leans toward hands similar to our so yah

[MaxStPolish]

dingas, on Thursday, October 29th, 2009, 4:13 PM, said:

Not really much to comment on. The check-raise bluff will work x% of the time, but it is difficult to quantify what x is... The only way to find out if this is a good play is to start making check-raises in these spots and see what happens. Either way, trying different lines sharpens your game and helps keep poker interesting, so I say go for it.

Exactly right. That's why I didn't bother posting where this derived from, what the result was, etc. I realized after posting and seeing a response or two this really isn't a situation that can glean advice. It's a very situational play. But I'm still glad I mentioned here, because I think my thought process could possibly open up an eye or two to the extremely rare situation of a full-bluff in PLO/8. That being said, I realized after the fact that it's impossible for someone to say "smart shove", because it's not smart unless you tie every single thing together as I did in my prior posts and actually put the faith in your read. Essentially, with results, it is nothing more than a brag or bust post. I guess just suffice it to say that while PLO/8 is pretty much an ABC game, always keep your head on a swivel for situations where A+B doesn't seem to be equaling C, and if your basis for this is founded, have the balls to try and make the play.

[redhollywood]

This is a pretty interesting hand. I see you being able to pull off this bluff effectively if I wasn't worried about the 2nd villian behind me. The only way I see you getting called here would be if 1st villian has top two or Str8 already. It seems to me that this is just a c-bet. If he is a thinking player like you say then this is an effective play but if he is somewhat new to the game or not as versed in the ways of 8 or better than this play probably wouldn't work. Your strategy is sound and I think well thought out. I think it would be worth the risk but again I would like to be just heads up with the original bettor.