AK Suited in Tourny

[PocketAceLoser 0]

I'm curious as to how the folks here would play this hand I was just just playing in a tournament in AC over the weekend. Here is a little background.Blinds - 400-800 (EDIT - Sorry, I meant to say blinds were 400-800 for a total of 1200 of blinds in the pot) :? 10 handed tableOverall table = fairly tight with 2 aggresive playersMy play has also been mostly Tight/AggresiveI have an average size stackI am in MPI am Dealt :heartsa: :heartsk: Everyone folds up to me. I make it 2000 to go, which is about 1/4 of my stack.Everyone else folds up to the SB who goes all in; which makes it an additional 3500 to me. My read on him was that he had a pocket pair and I honestly didn't think it would be A's or K's. He had less chips than me and I figured he was making a stand. So in my mind I figured it would be a coin flip. With the blinds creeping ever upward, I wanted to be in a better position to play on in the tourny. If I called and lost, I would still have about $3000 so I wouldn't be out completely. If I won, I would be in much better shape and have taken out another player. Also I figure, in these tournys, to make it to the final table, you have to win a couple of these coin flips.Would calling the all-in at this point be the smart thing to do, or is it just reckless?I'll post the result a little later today.PAL

[foodbanker 0]

Call..its only 3500 more to a pot that has 7300 in there already. From all the information I read...Its late in the tournament. There is a good chance you will lose out in this hand. But that is the gamble part of poker. Of course if you laydown it would not be a big mistake. In-fact i'm sure some people may say that would be the thing to do because you'll still have 8000 with blinds of 1800 per round. But poker, there is no complete 100% for sure right decisions. You have to take your chances with good cards. Hand it looks like AK is a good hand. Not the best but with money already thrown in, I think a call is justified.But of course, I could be wrong. That's the way poker is. The flop will make you look like a genius or one dumb fool.

[KKsuited 0]

I would call. I think the odds justify a call if he has any pair lower than KK.He may turn over AQs, which would be great.I played in a tournament in AC about a month ago and had a similar situation. I was in pretty good chip position, then lost 3 coinflips and was out. I had AK twice and 88 once (and lost to AK).I usually don't gamble that much, but in a tournament where the blinds go up really fast, you don't have much choice.

[tekn0wledg 0]

I would call, the pot is laying you 2.2-to-1 on the 7700 pot.... I'd call and hope your initial read of his hand was correct.I do agree that you need to win a couple coinflips along the way to get the stack you need to make a run at the final table and tournament victory, so calling here would be good.If you are up against a pair, you have a coin flip. If you are up against an overpair, well, you're a big dog depending on the flop, but anything could happen.

[JFarrell20 1]

Everyone folds up to me.  I make it 2000 to go, which is about 1/4 of my stack.

OK, first of all, let's focus on the real problem here...where you really screwed up the hand. PRE-FLOP. I just don't like the fact that you bet out 25% of your chips pre-flop with this hand. IMHO, this is where the hand went wrong... and now look, this guy goes all in on you and now you are in deep you-know-what. Do not put yourself in these positions! Yes, typically when dealt AK, you should double or triple the BB to go, but not when it's 1/4 of your stack. To me, you had two options1) Move all in and try to steal the 1200 in there which would have put you at 9200 instead of 8000. Not a good move in mid-position, and no reason to put your chips at risk to steal 1200. So I say no to that.2) Limp in. Limping in here is going to make the blinds wonder what you have... when you raised it, you let them know you were strong, but not dominating. This would tell that guy who moved all in on you that he could move all in w/ any pocket pair and probably survive. Let's put it this way. you made it 2000 to go, and the guy had like 3500 left? Obviously if he's strong at all he will push all in right now, and not just call. Pay attention to how much your enemies have left!!! If you limped in, I'm pretty sure he'd have limped in too. However, if he moved all in after you limped in... I'd call him. This is b/c he must be thinking you are weak, so he may be likely to push all in w/ anything. So I'm not even going to answer whether or not you should call his all in now.... well.... I would probably say fold it. No need to put your chips at risk yet. Face the fact that you misplayed the hand, and it's time to let it go and move on!!!

[doublesuited 0]

Everyone folds up to me.  I make it 2000 to go, which is about 1/4 of my stack.

OK, first of all, let's focus on the real problem here...where you really screwed up the hand. PRE-FLOP. I just don't like the fact that you bet out 25% of your chips pre-flop with this hand. IMHO, this is where the hand went wrong... and now look, this guy goes all in on you and now you are in deep you-know-what. Do not put yourself in these positions! Yes, typically when dealt AK, you should double or triple the BB to go, but not when it's 1/4 of your stack. To me, you had two options1) Move all in and try to steal the 1200 in there which would have put you at 9200 instead of 8000. Not a good move in mid-position, and no reason to put your chips at risk to steal 1200. So I say no to that.2) Limp in. Limping in here is going to make the blinds wonder what you have... when you raised it, you let them know you were strong, but not dominating. This would tell that guy who moved all in on you that he could move all in w/ any pocket pair and probably survive. Let's put it this way. you made it 2000 to go, and the guy had like 3500 left? Obviously if he's strong at all he will push all in right now, and not just call. Pay attention to how much your enemies have left!!! If you limped in, I'm pretty sure he'd have limped in too. However, if he moved all in after you limped in... I'd call him. This is b/c he must be thinking you are weak, so he may be likely to push all in w/ anything. So I'm not even going to answer whether or not you should call his all in now.... well.... I would probably say fold it. No need to put your chips at risk yet. Face the fact that you misplayed the hand, and it's time to let it go and move on!!!

great post. i agree with every word.

[RPGs316 0]

Middle position with Big Slick suited -is- a monster hand, I agree. But players [myself included] sometimes have a tendancy to overplay it and get themselves Pot Committed. As soon as you bet out 1/4 of your stack, the other guy probably picked up on the fact that you had a monster, and typically I only bet that much if I want to be called. I would've fired out a little bit smaller bet around the neighborhood of 1200 - 1500. With the raise of an additional 3500 with the go all in, I wouldn't have felt as bad of folding, especially because it was a coin-flip at best [in my eyes]. And also because he was in the SB.

[PocketAceLoser 0]

Face the fact that you misplayed the hand, and it's time to let it go and move on!!!

Yes, I figured the SB to have a pocket pair, and I thought it might have been time for a coin flip, so I called anyway. He turned over pocket 10's. The board showed nothing above a 6 with only 2 hearts, so yes I did lose the hand, and was never able to fully recover.Up to that point, I felt like I played solid poker. I was slowly accumulating chips, but with the blinds growing every 20-30 minutes, I thought it might have been time to make a move.

2) Limp in. Limping in here is going to make the blinds wonder what you have... when you raised it, you let them know you were strong, but not dominating. This would tell that guy who moved all in on you that he could move all in w/ any pocket pair and probably survive.  Let's put it this way. you made it 2000 to go, and the guy had like 3500 left? Obviously if he's strong at all he will push all in right now, and not just call. Pay attention to how much your enemies have left!!! If you limped in, I'm pretty sure he'd have limped in too. However, if he moved all in after you limped in... I'd call him. This is b/c he must be thinking you are weak, so he may be likely to push all in w/ anything.

Isn't the end result the same in your scenario? If I limp in and he goes all-in, you say to call. I wanted to show strength and that is why I made the 2.5X BB bet that I did. I was hoping the bet combined with my table image would knock out all the other marginal hands. In retro, if I only raised 1200 instead of the 2000, maybe I would have been able to let go of the hand easier once he went all in on me. I know I wouldn't have gone all-in (not at this point in the tourny), and with AK suited, even in MP, I felt like just calling the BB would have been a weak move. However, it was only my 2nd live tourny ever, so the experience was invaluable, and it was a lot of fun. I finished 55 out of 190.Lesson learned. If I go for a coin flip pre-flop in the 1st half of a tourny again, I'll try to at least have the pocket pair or better position so I have a better shot. I thank you all for your input.

[somnambulist 0]

How about raise it up to more than 1/4 of your stack, say 1/2 your stack?The way you did it the guy with 10 10 felt like he had some folding equity.Perhaps he felt you weren't pot commited. If you effectively set him all inthough he may have second thoughts about calling with 10 10.

[JustinHEMI04 0]

Doubtful the small guy woulda folded any poket pair at that point. He is thinking like you... gotta make a move now to double up. I don't think you made the wrong decision to call the all in but I also agree that your preflop play was a little off. But thats just a personal thing. Everyone has their game. At that point in the tournament and with the stack you had, for me personally, I would have made a half stack raise. Sure knowing now that it woulda lost, makes you think a dumb move. But in order to not lose that hand, you have to either fold or represent domination and make everyone lay down their hands. Then again, I like to gamble and don't sit down to fold cards. To each his own.Justin

[the_stein 0]

um to the idiot that said limp in... you're an idiot'yea let me just limp in with AK and not only give all the people after me to see a chance but let me also let the small and big blind see a cheap/free flop so they can catch a shitty 2 pair while I catch my top pair and bust"You're an idiot, of course he had to raise, maybe his raise was a bit higher then it could have been but it wasn't wrong. Besides, you say if he limps and the guy pushes all in he should call anyways... well if I'm on the shortstack and there is a limper and another blind in there, with 1010 I'm making my move preflop so the end result is the same. But by raising he prevented them seeing a cheap flop, and he is shortstacked, plus with money invested he might be going all in with who knows a5, k10, any of those handsAnother thing, if it is late in a tournament with big blinds, and I see limpers in front of me, if my cards are halfway decent and I have good chipstack, I'll make a huge raise and put people to a decision for their blind, what the **** would he do then when he is sitting there with AK and someone just put him all in late in a tourney.So in conclusionLIMPING IN AT THIS POINT IN THE TOURNEY IS RETARDED

[JFarrell20 1]

um to the idiot that said limp in... you're an idiot'yea let me just limp in with AK and not only give all the people after me to see a chance but let me also let the small and big blind see a cheap/free flop so they can catch a censored 2 pair while I catch my top pair and bust"You're an idiot, of course he had to raise, maybe his raise was a bit higher then it could have been but it wasn't wrong. Besides, you say if he limps and the guy pushes all in he should call anyways... well if I'm on the shortstack and there is a limper and another blind in there, with 1010 I'm making my move preflop so the end result is the same.  But by raising he prevented them seeing a cheap flop, and he is shortstacked, plus with money invested he might be going all in with who knows a5, k10, any of those handsAnother thing, if it is late in a tournament with big blinds, and I see limpers in front of me, if my cards are halfway decent and I have good chipstack, I'll make a huge raise and put people to a decision for their blind, what the censored would he do then when he is sitting there with AK and someone just put him all in late in a tourney.So in conclusionLIMPING IN AT THIS POINT IN THE TOURNEY IS RETARDED

Whoa... first of all, chill. He bet 1/4 of his stack in mid-position pre-flop. Let that resonate in your brain for a minute. Clearly, this is where he faulted the hand. Limping in here is only 10% of his chipstack... which is OK. Plus, lets remember that if an A or K falls on the flop he has the ability to slowplay other limpers if he wants. So you say he should definitely raise it a little? OK... so the minimum raise is to 1600... that is still 20% of his chipstack, and not enough to buy anybody out anyway. That is too much to invest pre-flop!And think about this... he bet 2000. The other guy put in 3500 more (figuring he'd get a call). This tells me that the other guy is VERY STRONG, and not just making a move. The other guy's chipstack is not low enough yet to have to "make a move". HOWEVER, if you limp here, and he pushes all in, and it folds to you, I probably WOULD call. My reasoning is that he smelled weakness and IS trying to make a move and steal limpers' blinds. See, the difference is, that the other guy doesn't know you are strong, whereas in the first scenario (when you made it 2000 to go) tells him you ARE very strong. (He knows you have enough chips, and are not making a move). That is why his over-the-top all-in scares me here (b/c he KNOWS you are strong... and he probably wants a call to double-up). He could easily have KK or AA (Or any pocket pair and be leading in the hand).I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. So a pot-head called me a moron for limping here... big deal. You don't just play your two hole cards buddy, you play the players, and the positions as well! Besides, when I know I've screwed up the hand, I don't feel comfortable playing on. Just put it down and learn your lesson! You do not have to push the panic button! Relax and be patient, and learn from your mis-bets. You should go far in the tourney.

[CoranMoran 0]

This is how I assess the situation:AK suited is a hand with monster potential and is among the top 5 in the game. I consider this a strong gambling hand in which you can invest a lot of money. And I can think of only a few situations in which you may not want to call a large raise with these cards.--> You have a very large stack so you are in no need to rush or force matters and one of the chip leaders goes all-in before the flop.--> You are convinced that your opponent has AA or KK.According to your introduction, neither of these cases is present.So you need to be prepared to gamble.The blinds are up to 800, so it must be late in the tournament.You only have 8000 chips (10x BB).Whenever you reach the point of 10x BB, you must realize that you need to think about making a move quickly. In fact, many texts will recommend that once you reach the 10x BB mark, whenever you make a bet, you should push in all your chips without thinking twice.So you are dealt AK suited and it is your turn to bet. You are obviously going to play this hand so you must decide how much to put in. Limping in with powerful hands (AA or KK) is risky because someone can hit a very lucky set or two pair. Limping in with AK is suicide because it doesn't take much luck at all to take the lead over your hand. Allowing everyone to see the flop cheap is probably more costly than folding the hand entirely. So we must rule this option out immediately.A standard bet of 2x BB or 3x BB is akward because it becomes such a large percentage of your stack. And before you ever make a large bet, you should decide how you are going to respond if you get raised. So let's examine that issue.In this situation, if you make a standard bet and then get raised, are there any circumstances in which you will not call with your AK?Because of the fact that you are beginning to run low on chips, you need to make a move soon. You should not allow yourself to get blinded down much further, so you need to see this hand as an opportunity to be aggressive. Thus you should feel comfortable calling any raise that follows.Now granted, as many people have pointed out, AK is a very vulnerable hand. If you do not spike your Ace or King, you have likely lost the pot. So it is in your best interest to minimize the number of opponents that will be playing in this hand with you.So if you know that you are going to gamble with these cards, and you want to minimize the field for this hand, and you are going to call any raise that comes anyways, it seems only logical that you go all-in pre-flop.Advanatage of moving all-in pre-flop:--> You may pressure small pairs out of the hand which greatly increases your winning chances.--> You create the possibility of stealing the blinds which gives you 1200 chips for free. And in this case, that will be a huge 15% increase to your stack!In the example that you presented us with, after failing to move all-in originally, you should still call the raise from the small blind for several reasons:--> Your opponent was dangerously low in chips (relative to the blinds) so may have had to go in with a less than ideal hand (AQ, etc).--> You have already committed 1/4 of your stack and have created an akward situation for yourself. Folding in what is at worst a coin-flip situation would be costly.--> Calling the all-in does not cost you all of your chips.Point: When you begin to get low in chips (10xBB) and you obtain one of the best starting hands in poker, gamble!--cnm

[wrto4556 0]

You should definately call.Matter of fact, I think I would have moved all in instead of raising to begin with.

[foodbanker 0]

As we can see from all the replies on this that there are allot of oppinions on this. And PLEASE let us all respect everyone's views. It also goes to show how difficult the hand is to play. The only test to see if you made the right decision is the flop. To tell you the truth, I think you played the hand fine. The only thing that went wrong was you didn't win. Hindsight can be a biach. Hey, isn't that something. Someone posted saying someone in the forum did something right!!! WOW. I must be sick.

[PocketAceLoser 0]

To tell you the truth, I think you played the hand fine. The only thing that went wrong was you didn't win. Hindsight can be a biach. Hey, isn't that something. Someone posted saying someone in the forum did something right!!! WOW. I must be sick.

Thanks. It is amazing how many theories there are regarding this specific hand. I could've sat at that table for an hour and still have made the wrong choice (but maybe the theoritcal Right decision). It did take me a little longer than normal to decide to call the all-in. :think: So I lost the hand. I figured I had a slightly less than 50% shot to win it. Since I had the guy covered, I decided to gamble - which you must do in a tournament at some point anyway. I sure was hoping for him to have AQ or something like that, but I knew he had a upper-mid pocket pair.CoranMoran brought up a good point. I knew I was very close to the 10XBB level. So I HAD to make a move soon. The only thing, though, was if I moved all-in first instead of making the raise to 2000, that would be construed as a bluff and it may guarntee a call by someone. The guy to my left was a bit aggressive and I figured him to sniff out a bluff - or at least read my move as a bluff. Also, he probably had me covered twice over. I wanted to convey a strong hand without putting all my chips at risk.Damn, now that I think about it, if I went all-in first and the guy to my left called, it might have scared out the pocket 10's and I would have a better shot at winning. The theories are endless...This board is great! Keep 'em coming.PAL

[foodbanker 0]

I just wanted to say one more useless tidpit.I dont' think that was the key hand that made you get kicked out of the tournament. With 8000 left with round of blinds at 1800.....ITs not allot but still capable of winning the tournament.I believe after that hand, you got beat, not by chips or cards..but you got beat mentally. Because you gave this hand so much thought and had an emotional attachment to having to win it. We all know to take life one day at a time,Well in poker,, its one hand at a time. What happened yesterday, is in the past. Ditto for poker.