cwik 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Villain is an loose-aggressive donk. He hasn't been sitting too long. I am SLAG.No Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.50/$16 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $98.50Hero: $288.05CO: $100.10Button: $193.34SB: $92.14BB: $105.30Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with Q K UTG folds, Hero raises to $4, CO folds, Button raises to $8, 2 folds, Hero calls.Flop: T A J ($17.5, 2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $7, Hero raises to $23, Button raises to $46,Hero...OK what is my most EV line here? Link to post Share on other sites
Dictius 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 re-minraise obv. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerinc 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 severed nuts sounds -ev. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Villain is an loose-aggressive donk. He hasn't been sitting too long. I am SLAG.No Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.50/$16 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $98.50Hero: $288.05CO: $100.10Button: $193.34SB: $92.14BB: $105.30Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with Q K UTG folds, Hero raises to $4, CO folds, Button raises to $8, 2 folds, Hero calls.Flop: T A J ($17.5, 2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $7, Hero raises to $23, Button raises to $46,Hero...OK what is my most EV line here?He's a lag donk?Call and check the turn and let him bluff shove, obv. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 What is his range do you think? If you think he ever has AT or AJ here, I just go ahead and reraise the flop and get it in. If you think he's ever got QJ/KJ type hands for a pair/gutter, I think you reraise the flop becuase he's gonna check back the turn a lot.I actually like the minreraise or repop him to like $99 tota. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 re-minraise obv.it bloats the pot enough to shove the turn. which is what we want Link to post Share on other sites
Craigdog 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 it bloats the pot enough to shove the turn. which is what we wantProbably the best line for this hand imo. Link to post Share on other sites
Temporary Nuts 1 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Call, check, shove.If you take this line and a broadway card falls before you shove, get over it you're shoving anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
ROBBBIGG 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 If villain isn't stupid, 6 handed, this is probably a call, lead out, shove any card. If villain is dumb or this is HU, shove. Link to post Share on other sites
Sheiky 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Re-raise imo.It's simple, but i think it gets his whole stack more often than other lines Link to post Share on other sites
Merlopj 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 what they said...So did he turn or river the boat with his JJ? Link to post Share on other sites
TB17 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Seriously guys?How is this not a 4 bet? What hand is he 3 betting with that he can fold to a 4 bet? AK, Maybe JT, Maybe AT. Since he's a donk, I do NOT see him folding. I dont see how you can call and let paint fall or let the board pair. If he has QQ/KK and you call hes probably not gonna give any action unless more paint falls. I see little value to calling as it can only hurt you. If you were in position I can see a call here, but OOP I think you just have to get the money in ASAP. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 If you were in position I can see a call here, but OOP I think you just have to get the money in ASAP.I agree and bad players will stack off with AK/AQ here sometimes too figuring they have lots of outs even if you have made 2 pair already. Link to post Share on other sites
Temporary Nuts 1 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 What hand is he 3 betting with that he can fold to a 4 bet?"What hand is he raising with that he can fold to a three bet?""What hand is he betting with that he can fold to a raise?"This type of thinking is flawed... not necessarily the conclusion you came to, but this type of thinking is. Link to post Share on other sites
cwik 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 Honestly after the minraise pf, I had him for incredibly strong, figured him for the set, but maybe AJ. If I am raising here, what do we like best, minbet, $110ish, shove? Link to post Share on other sites
No_Neck 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Honestly after the minraise pf, I had him for incredibly strong, figured him for the set, but maybe AJ. If I am raising here, what do we like best, minbet, $110ish, shove?I raise just slightly above min raise make it look like there might be the slightest chance I will fold for the $50 more dollars. :)To be honest I probably fall into the trap of juts calling and watch the J roll off and kill my action. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Honestly after the minraise pf, I had him for incredibly strong, figured him for the set, but maybe AJ. If I am raising here, what do we like best, minbet, $110ish, shove?I like the minbet or like $95. He's never not shoving AJ/AT or a set on you after you do that.doublenegatives FTW! Link to post Share on other sites
TB17 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 "What hand is he raising with that he can fold to a three bet?""What hand is he betting with that he can fold to a raise?"This type of thinking is flawed... not necessarily the conclusion you came to, but this type of thinking is.Explain. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 "What hand is he raising with that he can fold to a three bet?""What hand is he betting with that he can fold to a raise?"This type of thinking is flawed... not necessarily the conclusion you came to, but this type of thinking is.This is actually fundamental. In general, each raise increment that someone makes represents a deeper and deeper commitment to the pot and a (theoretically) stronger and stronger hand.When someone puts in a 3rd bet post flop, they usually have total air or a hand that they will not fold.Take it 1 step down and you'll see people raise with a wide variety of made hands, draws and air on the flop without having made up their mind what they're going to do if they are raised. Link to post Share on other sites
TB17 0 Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 This is actually fundamental. In general, each raise increment that someone makes represents a deeper and deeper commitment to the pot and a (theoretically) stronger and stronger hand.When someone puts in a 3rd bet post flop, they usually have total air or a hand that they will not fold.Take it 1 step down and you'll see people raise with a wide variety of made hands, draws and air on the flop without having made up their mind what they're going to do if they are raised.Dingalingadingdong Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 DingalingadingdongYou wanna see my what? Link to post Share on other sites
David_Nicoson 1 Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 I lead the flop. Everybody loves broadway flops. We'll get raised a lot. Link to post Share on other sites
cwik 0 Posted February 1, 2008 Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 I lead the flop. Everybody loves broadway flops. We'll get raised a lot.I almost never donk out, especially when I get 3bet preflop. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbywithani 0 Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 I almost never donk out, especially when I get 3bet preflop.You should start doing it, I was suprised at how much value I get out of it. I especially like it on this board because I believe the money will get in the middle a lot more when he has a big hand. People don't want to believe that you will donk with the nuts so I think it makes it a good play. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 This is actually fundamental. In general, each raise increment that someone makes represents a deeper and deeper commitment to the pot and a (theoretically) stronger and stronger hand.Thats not true in terms of bluffing, and information. which are 2 very big components to NL. When someone puts in a 3rd bet post flop, they usually have total air or a hand that they will not fold.Take it 1 step down and you'll see people raise with a wide variety of made hands, draws and air on the flop without having made up their mind what they're going to do if they are raised.Your excuse for 4 betting the flop is along the lines of, if he 3 bets, he has air or has something. Thats a pretty vague description and doesnt sell the idea of 4 betting very well.we get his chips when he has something, or he folds when he has air.what benefits come from a call, and turn check?If he has a hand, it doesnt matter. he bets the turn and we raise and money gets in the pot similar to the flop.Upside to this play, If he has air and we appear weak, we might just get him to make a big foolish bluff since he is a LAG.** There is some other considerations about a poor turn card. But then its a question of what do you believe to be a bigger factor, the odds of a K or Q peeling on the turn and potentially killing some action, or him having a hand not worthy of stacking off on the flop?DingalingadingdongIs this what you consider yourself when you play poker?Also, another note.. this month issue of bluff has a great article about EV in it, many of you should read it since I strongly believe some people have a skewed opinion of how to apply it to poker hands in NL Link to post Share on other sites
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