chrisuk_sw 0 Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Hello. I have a two-part question about people's lack of belief in evolution. If you say "I don't believe in evolution" - do either of these statements apply to you?- that you do not believe that evolution has occurred or does occur, i.e. you believe that biological changes over time such as speciation do not happen- or do you believe that evolution does occur, just that you do not believe that Darwin's theory of evolution by means of natural selection is correct?The second part of my question applies to human intervention in the selection process:- how does your belief tally with the labours of people who selectively breed dogs or cattle or strains of flowers?thanks in advance for your replies Link to post Share on other sites
DonkSlayer 1 Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 I think you should rephrase your question a bit. You'll find very few who don't believe in evolution across the board...but since evolution is a phenomena, you will run in to many that says it doesn't explain creation. Link to post Share on other sites
chrisuk_sw 0 Posted February 7, 2007 Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 Point taken - I found it very hard to phrase the question. I'm interested in what the views of non-believing Americans are, as this subject, along with general religious belief, seems to be a major point of difference between European and American world-views, especially considering that we moreorless agree about so much else. I was looking at a poll - http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm - that gave figures in 1997 that at least 83% of Americans do not believe in an evolutionary process without divine intervention - which is probably the inverse of the European figures. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 I've run into the following variations:1) God created the world in 7 days. The world is a few thousand years old. The fossil record is from the Great Flood.2) God created the world as is, and created all the scientific evidence of evolution to fool us, including the fossil record.3) God created the world millions of years ago in a primordial state, and has guided evolution since then.4) The fossil record is a sufficient and accurate explanation and is proof of evolution, the addition of a god to the picture adds nothing. An intervening God is an untestable hypothesis, and therefore not science. Link to post Share on other sites
timwakefield 68 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 2) God created the world as is, and created all the scientific evidence of evolution to fool us, including the fossil record.What a trickster that God is! Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 What a trickster that God is!That was my response to that theory. I've gotten two difference responses to that:1) God put misleading evidence on earth to test our faith, because faith is at the heart of religion.2) Who are we to ask why God would do that? We cannot comprehend God's motives. Link to post Share on other sites
semaj550 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 God created life. God also created everything around it. Evolution is just a part of God's creation, it was designed into life. Life began at Creation and evolved naturally from there. Link to post Share on other sites
BWToth 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 God created life. God also created everything around it. Evolution is just a part of God's creation, it was designed into life. Life began at Creation and evolved naturally from there.That's contradictory. One Example:According to creation dinosaurs exists millions of years before humans were 'created'. Accroding to creation, dinosaurs were created a few DAYS prior to humans.Which one is it? Link to post Share on other sites
DonkSlayer 1 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 That's contradictory. One Example:According to creation dinosaurs exists millions of years before humans were 'created'. Accroding to creation, dinosaurs were created a few DAYS prior to humans.Which one is it?Not if you believe Genesis is a metaphor rather than a literal account. Link to post Share on other sites
BWToth 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 How do you determine what is literal and what is metaphorical. Maybe hell is metaphorical, maybe 'jesus as the son of god' is just a metaphor'You can't just pick and choose because you want want to be literal and the other to be metaphorical to fit into your own intermpretation and justification of your belief system. Link to post Share on other sites
semaj550 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 How do you determine what is literal and what is metaphorical. Maybe hell is metaphorical, maybe 'jesus as the son of god' is just a metaphor'You can't just pick and choose because you want want to be literal and the other to be metaphorical to fit into your own intermpretation and justification of your belief system.Who is to say what a day is to God? Who is to say that "days" are even involved? The Genesis creation story is quite obviously an attempt to tell people how they got here. It tells us that there are discreet periods of time during which God created certain aspects of the universe. Your definition of a 24 hour day is irrelevant. Link to post Share on other sites
DonkSlayer 1 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 How do you determine what is literal and what is metaphorical. Maybe hell is metaphorical, maybe 'jesus as the son of god' is just a metaphor'You can't just pick and choose because you want want to be literal and the other to be metaphorical to fit into your own intermpretation and justification of your belief system.I try to use my best common sense. I look at the bible as a compass rather than a rule book. I make my assumptions based on the weight of biblical evidence for or against, along with other factors. So, in other words, you're wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
BWToth 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 I try to use my best common sense. I look at the bible as a compass rather than a rule book. I make my assumptions based on the weight of biblical evidence for or against, along with other factors. So, in other words, you're wrong.the story of creation, using common sense, would indicate that the earth was created in 7 days. anything beyond that is changing, shaping what is said in to something else.so in other words, you're changing what is written in the bible to fit a more logical mold of what you believe the actual circumstances were. Link to post Share on other sites
BWToth 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Who is to say what a day is to God? Who is to say that "days" are even involved? The Genesis creation story is quite obviously an attempt to tell people how they got here. It tells us that there are discreet periods of time during which God created certain aspects of the universe. Your definition of a 24 hour day is irrelevant.Then why doesn't the Bible just tell the story of evolution, as it is, in general terms very simple in nature, and also a lot more believable. Why make of some crazy concept of time when there was no need for one. God being all knowing would have forseen the problems that would arise between people trying to decipher what he is trying to say and it would have made more sense for god to just tell the truth from the start. Link to post Share on other sites
semaj550 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Then why doesn't the Bible just tell the story of evolution, as it is, in general terms very simple in nature, and also a lot more believable. Why make of some crazy concept of time when there was no need for one. God being all knowing would have forseen the problems that would arise between people trying to decipher what he is trying to say and it would have made more sense for god to just tell the truth from the start.Tell the story of evolution? What story, exactly?Why is it that something needs to make sense to you for it to be true of God? Link to post Share on other sites
BWToth 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Tell the story of evolution? What story, exactly?Why is it that something needs to make sense to you for it to be true of God?Well, if you believe in evolution, but creation (taken literally) and evolution cannot be made to fit with one another, then why didn't god just go with describing evolution in the first place?A. god doesn't use logicB. god liedC. Evolution is wrongD. Creationism is wrong Link to post Share on other sites
semaj550 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Well, if you believe in evolution, but creation (taken literally) and evolution cannot be made to fit with one another, then why didn't god just go with describing evolution in the first place?A. god doesn't use logicB. god liedC. Evolution is wrongD. Creationism is wrongWhat in the world are you talking about? How are creation and evolution mutally exclusive? Link to post Share on other sites
BWToth 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 What in the world are you talking about? How are creation and evolution mutally exclusive?A LITERAL interpretation of creation and evolution are obviously mutually exclusive. Do you not know what each of them says? Link to post Share on other sites
semaj550 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 A LITERAL interpretation of creation and evolution are obviously mutually exclusive. Do you not know what each of them says?Evolution only deals with what happened after the origin of life. Whether that origin was intelligent design or chemical abiogenesis make no difference to evolution. Link to post Share on other sites
BWToth 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Evolution only deals with what happened after the origin of life. Whether that origin was intelligent design or chemical abiogenesis make no difference to evolution.Then how did dinosaurs die out millinos of years prior to the existence of man but were also created just 3 days prior to man? Those two things are mutally exclusive. It means they both can't be true. Link to post Share on other sites
semaj550 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Then how did dinosaurs die out millinos of years prior to the existence of man but were also created just 3 days prior to man? Those two things are mutally exclusive. It means they both can't be true.Replace "days" with "discreet periods of time" and I think you have a more accurate picture of creation. Link to post Share on other sites
BWToth 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 The bible doesn't say 'discreet periods of time' it says DAYS. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Evolution only deals with what happened after the origin of life. Whether that origin was intelligent design or chemical abiogenesis make no difference to evolution.we don't know exactly what happened yet obviously, but there is every reason to think that the principals behind the mechanism of natural selection have the potential to explain abiogenesis every bit as well as they explain speciation. in other words evolution potentially has *everything* to say about abiogenesis. there is no evidence indicating abiogenesis and speciation are radically different phenomena. Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 I try to use my best common sense. I look at the bible as a compass rather than a rule book. I make my assumptions based on the weight of biblical evidence for or against, along with other factors.by "common sense" you of course mean analytical methods derived from modern science/logic independant of the bible. NEWS FLASH: the principals of science/logic do not just invalidate belief in genesis-literal creation. they necessarily invalidate literal belief in every biblical mention of god/miracles. in other words if you think the same principals of logic/science you are using to invalidate literal belief in 7 day creation, global flood etc don't equally invalidate literal belief in the resurrection of jesus for the exact same reasons, you are deluding yourself. Link to post Share on other sites
semaj550 0 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 we don't know exactly what happened yet obviously, but there is every reason to think that the principals behind the mechanism of natural selection have the potential to explain abiogenesis every bit as well as they explain speciation. in other words evolution potentially has *everything* to say about abiogenesis. there is no evidence indicating abiogenesis and speciation are radically different phenomena.How could evolution explain abiogensis? The spontaneous generation of amino acids from inert chemicals would have nothing at all to do with natural selection. Link to post Share on other sites
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