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Az Shooter Was An Atheist


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Now that we know that that nut job was a nihilist / atheist can we make a couple speculations?If he had been a Christian obeying God, would there already have been a thread started here? My guess is yes.Does the fact that this guy lived his life consistent with his beliefs, that nothing mattered, show that this belief system is more potentially damaging than any other?

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SureProbablyNo
You know you pretty much killed the thread.You trying to be known as SJ the Thread Killer?I mean it is a cool title...
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You know you pretty much killed the thread.You trying to be known as SJ the Thread Killer?I mean it is a cool title...
Sorry.Ok, so...most potentially damaging belief system. Let's take the example of: killing people. One belief system says there will be no eternal consequences for: killing people, but you still have to go to jail on earth and stuff and earth is all you got. Another belief system says there will be eternal rewards for: killing people, but you still have to go to jail on earth and stuff and earth is but an insignificant amount of time to you.I think the latter belief system has far more potential for damage.
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Sorry.Ok, so...most potentially damaging belief system. Let's take the example of: killing people. One belief system says there will be no eternal consequences for: killing people, but you still have to go to jail on earth and stuff and earth is all you got. Another belief system says there will be eternal rewards for: killing people, but you still have to go to jail on earth and stuff and earth is but an insignificant amount of time to you.I think the latter belief system has far more potential for damage.
Except you must agree that after death there is a continuance, because with no continuance of existence, then dying is as irrelevant as living was.If there is a continuance of existence, then the issue becomes what is your role while alive? And what actions are you responsible for?
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Yes, yes, we get it.We understand. We've heard it over and over.Religious people, by logical progression, state unabashedly, "If I didn't have a god-figure in the sky telling me what I can and cannot do I would rape babies and shoot up supermarkets because lolwhynot?"We understand: you have no reason based morality or ethical system, nor any intrinsic repulsion to such things. We are not like you. Normal, rational, critical thinking people do not share your urge to rape and kill everyone, and do not need your sky-dragon to stop them.

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Yes, yes, we get it.We understand. We've heard it over and over.Religious people, by logical progression, state unabashedly, "If I didn't have a god-figure in the sky telling me what I can and cannot do I would rape babies and shoot up supermarkets because lolwhynot?"We understand: you have no reason based morality or ethical system, nor any intrinsic repulsion to such things. We are not like you. Normal, rational, critical thinking people do not share your urge to rape and kill everyone, and do not need your sky-dragon to stop them.
Well...one of you didn't get the memo.The memo on how to use a straw man.
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Well...one of you didn't get the memo.The memo on how to use a straw man.
Nice try. Reread it. Do your best to follow the line of thought and actually understand the words and how they work together."Normal, rational, critically thinking people"...None of that applies to that guy.Straw man maker, stuff thyself. (Yes, that's a cumbersome and sloppy play on 'Doctor, heal thyself'. I'm lazy these days. Deal with it.)However, you disregard the point:1. If someone doesn't have an imaginary friend in the sky they are prone to rape and murder people because lolwhynot.2. I am someone.3. Therefore, if I didn't have an imaginary friend in the sky I would rape and murder people because lolwhynot.It's clear why you disregard the point and instead deflect onto something else, because when it's revealed in this way it is clearly not as powerful as you think it is.In fact, it is the opposite of powerful. At least in regard to the strength of your argument.It is just you stating that, if not for your belief in a personal Thor, you would be prone to raping and murdering people.
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It is just you stating that, if not for your belief in a personal Thor, you would be prone to raping and murdering people.
Actually, I think that's backwards. It seems he is saying if you were prone to raping and murdering people, then your belief in a personal Thor could thwart it, whereas with no personal Thor, there would be nothing to stop you.
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Now that we know that that nut job was a nihilist / atheist can we make a couple speculations?If he had been a Christian obeying God, would there already have been a thread started here? My guess is yes.Does the fact that this guy lived his life consistent with his beliefs, that nothing mattered, show that this belief system is more potentially damaging than any other?
LOL
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Actually, I think that's backwards. It seems he is saying if you were prone to raping and murdering people, then your belief in a personal Thor could thwart it, whereas with no personal Thor, there would be nothing to stop you.
...That's precisely what I'm pointing out. Religious person: Morality comes from my boogeyman. Without my belief in this boogey man, might as well rape and murder.Because lolwhynot?Me: You're an idiot.
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Buddhism is an atheistic, ancient religion that teaches peace, compassion, and non-violence. Like Christianity it does lay out a set of moral guidelines that should be followed, and it does have a cycle of long-term rewards and punishments (karma, samsara), but that's not based on a deity. It does employ a supernatural mechanism that helps keep people from rapin' each other all day (karma), but that's not terribly central to a lot of forms of Buddhism. The religion is really about acting and thinking in a way designed to either help you enjoy your life as best you can (for laypeople), or acting and thinking in a way designed to help you better understand the true nature of existence (for monks or serious practitioners). I'm generalizing here, and there are some quite different forms of Buddhism, but largely I don't think that good karma and bad karma are used as an enticement/threat to make you want to be a good person. One thing we can take from The Eightfold Noble Path (in conjunction with The Four Noble-Ass Truths), is that the reason to act decently is because that's the only way to achieve true happiness, for monks and laypeople alike, and it's the only way you can stay on a path towards increasing your understanding of the reality of existence. That's why the average person doesn't murder people all day long. It's because it makes us feel bad. It's not just because it's against God's wishes. Buddhists have historically been perhaps the most non-violent people(s) in the history of the planet, and don't believe in God. Doesn't say much for the God=morality argument.

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If there were no religion then there wouldn't be atheists. Religion; you'll never win!BTW, it has been reported that the shooter also liked broccoli. Let's discuss that! It really is a gateway vegetable.

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Buddhism is an atheistic, ancient religion that teaches peace, compassion, and non-violence. Like Christianity it does lay out a set of moral guidelines that should be followed, and it does have a cycle of long-term rewards and punishments (karma, samsara), but that's not based on a deity. It does employ a supernatural mechanism that helps keep people from rapin' each other all day (karma), but that's not terribly central to a lot of forms of Buddhism. The religion is really about acting and thinking in a way designed to either help you enjoy your life as best you can (for laypeople), or acting and thinking in a way designed to help you better understand the true nature of existence (for monks or serious practitioners). I'm generalizing here, and there are some quite different forms of Buddhism, but largely I don't think that good karma and bad karma are used as an enticement/threat to make you want to be a good person. One thing we can take from The Eightfold Noble Path (in conjunction with The Four Noble-Ass Truths), is that the reason to act decently is because that's the only way to achieve true happiness, for monks and laypeople alike, and it's the only way you can stay on a path towards increasing your understanding of the reality of existence. That's why the average person doesn't murder people all day long. It's because it makes us feel bad. It's not just because it's against God's wishes. Buddhists have historically been perhaps the most non-violent people(s) in the history of the planet, and don't believe in God. Doesn't say much for the God=morality argument.
Karma has been used in India through Hinduism to justify not helping the poor because of the supposition that a person who is suffering now is suffering because of his choices in a past life, and to ease their suffering would only prolong their need to suffer to satisfy a morality debt they owe due to their last life's choices. They can see it as a good thing that they don't give any of their own money to help a starving person.So basically, any form of belief system can be used to justify any choices you make. It only matters what you want to make it fit.If you believe that God chose you and that makes you special then you can justify killing others who God didn't chose.If you believe there is no God, no afterlife, you can choose to shoot someone just to see what happens.If you believe that Broccoli is good, then you can justify hating George H. Bush for talking crap about it during his presidency.
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So basically, any form of belief system can be used to justify any choices you make. It only matters what you want to make it fit.
I suppose that's true, and the rest of your post is fairly reasonable. I'm not sure it addressed the main point I was trying to make though, which is the issue of how and why Buddhists have managed, for ~2,500 years, to be among the most non-violent, morally decent people ever, if atheism breeds immorality like you claim.
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I suppose that's true, and the rest of your post is fairly reasonable. I'm not sure it addressed the main point I was trying to make though, which is the issue of how and why Buddhists have managed, for ~2,500 years, to be among the most non-violent, morally decent people ever, if atheism breeds immorality like you claim.
I will grant you that Buddhists are generally more non-violent. But they are not free from any reproach. Look at the Thailand Buddhist who burned down the rival Buddhist sect's buildings etc. They also have shown themselves to be fierce fighters in most Buddhist predominate countries ( defending themselves, but also in offense once communism nudges them on.But when I say atheist, I mean much more the current belief system that is tax exempt by the IRS that believes that this life is all there is, which is not what Buddhist believe, they do hold to an outside judgment by virtue of feeling they must do X to attain Y.And I never claimed atheism breeds immorality. I said this person justified his immorality by using nihilism and atheism.
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But when I say atheist, I mean much more the current belief system that is tax exempt by the IRS that believes that this life is all there is, which is not what Buddhist believe, they do hold to an outside judgment by virtue of feeling they must do X to attain Y.
That's not completely accurate. Buddhists do not believe in "an outside judgment." There is no judgment. Actions are not judged by anybody or anything. An unguided, un-judged cycle of (supernatural) reincarnation is assumed, but like I said it's very rarely as central to Buddhism as Heaven and Hell are to Christianity. Many Western Buddhists simply don't believe in standard Buddhist reincarnation, and their rejection of that idea does not necessarily exclude them from being a full-fledged Buddhist. The notion of karma can be seen as an illustration of the simple idea that if you're a good person you'll be happy and if you're a bad person you'll be unhappy. That's an idea that is pretty qualitatively true among all peoples, excepting sociopaths.
And I never claimed atheism breeds immorality. I said this person justified his immorality by using nihilism and atheism.
Firstly, I don't think that's at all true. Last I heard he wasn't cooperating with anybody, so pretending to understand what he perceived as his motive or justification for his actions is jumping to conclusions. Secondly though, you admitted before that somebody could just as easily use God as their justification. Whether the kid says a Godless universe made him do it, or that God Himself told him to do it doesn't matter. In either instance the kid is a nutter - his actions were so blatantly irrational that it doesn't matter at all what he believes his motivation to have been. His motivation was: craziness.
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Now that we know that that nut job was a nihilist / atheist can we make a couple speculations?If he had been a Christian obeying God, would there already have been a thread started here? My guess is yes.Does the fact that this guy lived his life consistent with his beliefs, that nothing mattered, show that this belief system is more potentially damaging than any other?
actually this is a veiled, you can't be moral without God thread which we all know is actually partly true. I suppose we evolved with a predisposition to have magical thinking as a survival technique. His brain (the shoooter) ultimately failed him though and he made a huge error in judgement. Normally magical thinking errors don't get people killed, but in this case he apparently bought into the right wing conspiracy theories and couldn't shake it.
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