12 replies to this topic

[grocery_mony]

Hand that came up a couple of weeks ago in a $10 tourney. 7 left I have about 180k and am in 3rd in chips but everyone except the bigstack with1.4mill, and the ss with about 40k, are within about 50k of each other. Big stack who has been running over the table raises to 80k I am next to act with 88. 7th pays lil over 500 while first is over 4k. The ss is in the bb and will be desperate real soon. I decide to push thinking if I win the hand I will be in line to have a real shot at the top 2 spots with position on the monster stack. If I fold I can pick up about $250 more if someone goes out soon. I decided that the 250 wasnt as important as having a real shot to win. Was I right in my thought process or should I try and wait for the ss to bust

[ChrisRichey]

So you pushed an utg raise from utg+1 with 88 when you were 3rd in chips? I don't like it.

[tskillz187]

I don't like the push either. Someone could wake up with a hand behind you no doubt, your hand isn't all that strong, you have very little fold equity and unless he has 22-77 or was completely bluffing you are in at best a coinflip.You want to get aggressive when another player or two busts. You have position on the bully, so whenever he isn't in a pot would be good times to open up, and also if you can build your stack so that it hurts him, then you can start reraising him all in PF. Right now to come over the top of him all in I'd need AQ, AK, JJ, QQ, KK, AA.

[NEtwowilldo]

What were the blinds?You say the big stack had been "running the table over" Was he so maniacal that 88 is very very likely the best hand? If so, I like the push, but it depends on your read of this player.You should keep in mind that you're always playing to win, not to move up, so with that in mind, I like the push, if you think you're ahead. I'm guessing the bigstack had a higher pair and you busted though, yes?

[ChrisRichey]

There are five people yet to act in the hand, pushing with 88 is really bad unless our M is less than 6ish. I think 6 is right where we need to pick up the aggression, and if we're not able to get first in at this table due to the CL, then a push here is prob the right play.

[YBravo]

grocery_mony, on Friday, March 23rd, 2007, 7:37 PM, said:

Hand that came up a couple of weeks ago in a $10 tourney. 7 left I have about 180k and am in 3rd in chips but everyone except the bigstack with1.4mill, and the ss with about 40k, are within about 50k of each other. Big stack who has been running over the table raises to 80k I am next to act with 88. 7th pays lil over 500 while first is over 4k. The ss is in the bb and will be desperate real soon. I decide to push thinking if I win the hand I will be in line to have a real shot at the top 2 spots with position on the monster stack. If I fold I can pick up about $250 more if someone goes out soon. I decided that the 250 wasnt as important as having a real shot to win. Was I right in my thought process or should I try and wait for the ss to bust

The first problem with pushing here is that you already have a good chance at one of the top 2 spots. "About 50k" when you have 180k is a pretty big edge. This might be my SnG mentality, but I always feel like once it gets down to about 4-5 players, just about anyone has a chance to win it if they aren't completely desperate. Also if the big stack is really as aggressive as you describe, it seems like he will probably misstep at some point and put his chips in with the worst of it. His other option is scaling back his aggressiveness a bit, which gives you the chance to be aggressive. Both good results. Basically, I think waiting a little bit gives you a better chance at the top 2 spots. The second problem is, as tskillz pointed out, you have no fold equity. He's going to call you after that raise independent of his hand, and you are almost never a significant favorite.

[TwoFourOffsuit]

I'd pick a better spot to make a move than here. Even if the chip leader had been LAGish, an UTG raise shouldn't be taken so lightly as to call or raise all-in with 88, which is by no means a power hand. You're up there in chips and by no means desperate. Let it go.

[grocery_mony]

Blinds were 10k/20k 1ka and moving up to 15k/30k in 2 mins. I knew there was no way the big stack was gonna fold with 80k of his already in the pot so I was trying to get 400k which would give me double everyone except the big stack. When I say running over the table I mean he came to the ft with 800k and had raised most pots preflop. The 80k bet was more than his usual so I thought a hand like 77 was possible but figured more than likely we were racing. with 5 of us gouped so tightly in chips my main concern with my decsion is should I have waited for someone to bust before getting in there and gambling? And for the record other than the big stack this was the tightest FT I have ever been a part of. Winning tournaments is the ultimate goal but 1 move up in the pay scale equalled 23 buy ins which is not nothing. I was sur it was the right move at the time but the more I have thought about it since maybe it was a hand I should have folded. Still on the fence.

[ChrisRichey]

You really need to give as much information as possible in your original post next time. Are there antes? 21 buy-ins is a pretty big jump from 7th to 6th, but we are playing to win, and if the CL has been bullying the table and you haven't been able to get fiv, then I am fine with the push.

[SlackerInc]

ChrisRichey, on Friday, March 23rd, 2007, 11:24 PM, said:

There are five people yet to act in the hand, pushing with 88 is really bad unless our M is less than 6ish. I think 6 is right where we need to pick up the aggression, and if we're not able to get first in at this table due to the CL, then a push here is prob the right play.

Just FTR I think "6ish" is way, WAY too late to "pick up the aggression". WAYYYYYY too late. I used to hate being at an M of 11 or 12 and feeling (per HoH) that I wasn't "allowed" to move in yet. Now I have Arnold Snyder's Poker Tournament Formula to my rescue, and I quote p. 164 (emphasis mine):Very Short Chip Stack (11-20 Big Blinds)Any Position: Raise or reraise all-in with 77 to AA, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, KT, and QJ.Late Position: If first in, raise all-in with any two cards.Love it. Just love it to pieces. Smooch, smooch. :)ETA: OP's chip stack was actually shorter than the above (even without adjusting for antes). So I should quote that section too:Push all-in from any position against any number of opponents with any hand containing an ace or a king, any two cards valued at ten or higher, any pair, or suited connectors down to 8-7s.This is insanely LAG compared to "standard" advice as you will get on this board or from other poker books; and I'll admit it's even a little much for me (I folded a K-3 offsuit in this exact situation recently when someone had raised the pot ahead of me). But the guy knows what he is talking about, and I don't know that I don't need to suck it up and get completely on board.

[ChrisRichey]

There is a difference between an M of 10 and having 10 bbs. It sounds like their zones are probably pretty close.

[copernicus]

Knowing the blinds might change my mind if they arent very big, but I agree with the push here. You are almost certain to isolate against the bully stack, who has a huge range here. You are probably racing against two overcards, but I think its worth the riskEdit after seeing the blinds: I definitely like the push...stacks are all to short except the big one to wait around for premium hands, and Im happy to race here. The only other hands that are calling are QQ+ (maybe even KK+), and theres less than 10% chance of one of those being out there.

[SlackerInc]

ChrisRichey, on Saturday, March 24th, 2007, 9:53 AM, said:

There is a difference between an M of 10 and having 10 bbs. It sounds like their zones are probably pretty close.

Huh?!? Snyder is saying if your M is 13 and someone raises ahead of you, you should push over top of them with QJos or KTos. And if your M is 6, and three people all pushed ahead of you, you should jump in and push as well with K2os, QTos, or 22 (for three of the weaker examples). This is all even if your chip stack (Q) is above average.You don't think that's way looser than the HoH zones?