deep-stacked heads-up no limit hand aug 21st

[akishore 0]

ignore the stakes, we are playing for a side wager, but these are the only heads-up cash game stakes where the stacks are 250 BB.this is somewhere near the middle of the session. i have been playing considerably passive when out of position and slightly aggressive when in position. since my opponent is almost a maniac, i am letting him control the betting a vast majority of the the time. in other words, my goal is to let him win a lot of small pots while i aim for the big ones.i am exploiting two weaknesses. the first is that he makes pot-sized bets when he is bluffing or semi-bluffing, but makes smaller (usually 1/2 pot and 2/3 pot and sometimes 3/4 pot) bets when he is value betting. the second is that he checkraises a lot as bluffs, and the checkraises are usually naked bluffs (not semi-bluffs).this hand had me utterly confused.$5 NL (1c/2c blinds) on pokerstars, heads-up$4.50 approximate stack for hero$5.50 approximate stack for villiani'm SB with 9 8 .i raise to 5c, villian calls.(10c) 10 9 6 villian checks, i bet 10c, villian raises to 30c, i call planning to get aggressive on most (non-paint was my first thought) turns.(70c) 6 villian bets 40c, i now hesitate but raise to $1.15, villian reraises to $4.15 (that puts me exactly all-in if i call), and it's $3 to me in a pot of $6.i thought for a long time and finally folded. my opponent didn't show his hand, that bastard! anyway, i'm wondering if raising the turn was a mistake. i think it was, but i'm not sure if i'm being results oriented seeing as i got reraised hard. some thoughts after the hand included "you would hate getting raised, so just call," but at the same time, i honestly thought i would take down the pot right there (until that scary value bet).if i do choose to raise, i'm not sure if i raised the right amount (i raised about half pot more after the call). i thought about pushing but didn't like it much because of the scary value bet and the fact that i was usually only getting called when i was pretty far behind or possibly drawing dead.i'm also wondering if this is a clear-cut call on the end or if this is a clear-cut fold or if it's pretty close.i'll elaborate on some reads:- preflop, i was actually limping most of my hands from the SB and folding some of them (there's really no need to play every hand when you have deep stacks). when i raised from the button, he reraised out of position with a decent frequency. the thought that he could be slowplaying a monster preflop did cross my mind, since he surprisingly didn't reraise.- on the flop, like i said, the checkraise was almost always a bluff or semi-bluff. i should note that some hands ago, i made a steal bet on the flop in position with 9-high, he checkraised me on a semi-draw-heavy board, i called, he bet out on a brick turn, i raised twice the pot and he folded. (i didn't show my 9-high.) was waiting for the turn to raise a good idea? i thought it would extract more value that way, and while my hand was vulnerable, it also wasn't strong enough to reraise right here, i thought.- on the turn, like i said, that value bet scared the shit out of me. i had no idea what to think, since i thought that was a good card for me. i should note that i had seen him play bottom pair pretty passively in small pots, but maybe the fact that i raised preflop could make him get more aggressive with bottom pair on the flop. this is, i think, the first push i had seen him make all session.while he does tend to overplay SOME hands (he got way aggressive with kings when he raised preflop, i called, i checkraised him on a 10-high flop with middle pair, and he came over the top for about 4x the pot and showed his kings after i folded), i don't doubt that he would play a monster the same way.thoughts?aseemp.s. i won't be back until about 9pm EST, so don't expect any answers to questions until later tonight.

[akishore 0]

:!: are you serious? four hours and _NO_ replies?aseem

[TheIceman05 0]

:!: are you serious? four hours and _NO_ replies?aseem

You said you weren't going to be back until 9 EST.What do you want from us, lame-o?Ice

[strategy 4]

I bet 10c

I see you really ARE having bankroll troubles. :)I'm a decent NL heads up player. I think there's enough doubt to justify calling it, especially now that you picked up the flush draw.Have you ever seen him go berserk on a bluff like this before?

[bdc30 0]

At the point he makes the standard continuation beton the turn, I would probably just flat call, since we'venow picked up a gutshot straight flush draw.He's apparently representing some type of hand, andI think you have a ton of ways to improve on the riverat this point. Aside from the case 7 , I also thinkany other , 7 or 9 makes you golden.I know you said you planned to get aggressive on theturn, but when he bets out, I would think we haveenough ways to improve here to want to see the river. If one of our cards doesn't fall, and he bets againTHEN it may be time to put in a raise and take him down, especially considering our 9's might be goodenough even if unimproved.Flat call, then take the stand on the river.

[InertGrudge 0]

:!: are you serious? four hours and _NO_ replies?aseem

You had a sick amount of analysis of your own. After reading it, I really got nothing. Although, I sort of agree that just smooth-calling on the turn may have been a solid play, especially after picking up the flush draw. However, when he raised and re-raised, I'd be awfully scared too. It would have to be a massive bluff to make an apparent value bet and then re-raise all-in. All told, given the action in the hand, I would have hesistantly laid this one down too -- but I would not have been very happy about it.

[akishore 0]

thanks for the replies.i know it's easy to think that i should have just called the turn, but i'm honestly not sure if that's completely right. i feel that i am being a little results oriented and others might be, too (since the turn raise backfired on me).can we discuss what makes calling that turn better than raising it?aseem

[bdc30 0]

can we discuss what makes calling that turn better than raising it?aseem

I just think you've picked up a ton of outs that make you the absolute best hand, instead of maybe being the best at this point.He acts before you on the river, and if any of your cards hityou will for sure be able to get him for a huge bet, sincehe'll have so much invested at that point, it'll be tough to fold.If nothing helps you on the river, and he bets huge, it'll beeasier to get away from, IMO. If you get a cheap showdownunimproved, that's not a bad thing either. I think you want to see another card here before commitingyourself too much into this one.

[akishore 0]

do i WANT to lay this down on the river unimproved?do i WANT to show this down cheaply and pass up on possible value?aseem

[bdc30 0]

do i WANT to lay this down on the river unimproved?do i WANT to show this down cheaply and pass up on possible value?aseem

Both questions I think easier answered once a fifth cardis on the board. (and we see what action we are facing)

[strategy 4]

do i WANT to show this down cheaply and pass up on possible value?

What value? The only thing you could bet on the river that has any hope of being called and ending up the best hand would be a lower pocket pair or something that paired lower than 9 on the river. Where am I going wrong here?

[DanielNegreanu 141]

I don't like the raise on the turn AT ALL. You have a really "cool" hand, but it's not all that good against most of the hands your opponent may be betting. The only real value with the raise comes when he folds a better hand. That, and when you get to protect your hand against his draw (remember, you also have a draw which makes it less likely he'll hit his). Compare that with the disaster or raising, getting re-raised by A-6 and then having to fold with all of those juicy outs. The play was to call on the turn and reassess on the river.

[pokerkid 0]

Well I geuss that settles it.

[akishore 0]

yes, it does settle it. thanks for the reply, daniel. :-) if you still read this, daniel, given the way i raised the turn, does the push giving me 2-to-1 make this an automatic call, an automatic fold, or is it very close?aseem

[DanielNegreanu 141]

That depends how likely you think it is that he's already full. You have to ask yourself if he would play two pair or a set like that. If you are pretty sure he isn't full yet, then you should call.

[nutzbuster 7]

In light of the fact that you had a potentially great hand AND position I would have just called the turn. You gained when he only bet a small amount which opened the door for you to just call and see a cheap river. And then who knows? A perfect scare river card may have meant a check to you. And then.....Best...

[Ebonwoulfe 0]

Yeah, you've got to just call the turn.Look at it this way, you have one pure out to the SF, 8 more decent outs to the flush, and 3 outs to a straight that is just as likely to be as good as the flush. Add two clean outs to the full house, as well. Pretty much ignore the two pair outs, they're not very stable at this point at all. There's $1.10 in the pot, and you have .40 to call. This is an easy call, at least. Around 14-32 odds, and you're getting 4-11 from the pot, not to mention implied odds and the likelyhood that if you're good already you might catch a bluff by calling down.But what about raising? If you raise with the best hand, he folds, and you win no more $$ with your decent hand and strong draw. If he just has overs, he has at most 6 outs, and at least 4 outs to beat you (since either of his higher pair could make your flush a winner). So if you don't raise the turn, and all he has is overs, he's already made a mistake by betting the turn. You don't need to raise to protect, or to run him off. Your bet would only have value if it was a pure value bet. It isn't. It's partially a value bet (but what can he call on this board that doesn't have you beat? You're basically hoping he has a club draw like you that you're beating now, so he'll put more money in with the worst of it), partially a protection bet (which, as I argued above, is unnecessary since 4-6 outs usually doesn't get there), and if you think he has you beat, it's partially a bluff. Your bet is trying to accomplish too many contradictory goals. Your call accomplishes its goal with certainty - you get the minimum in on a hand that could be good and could easily improve if it isn't.Ok here's the crux of the matter - if *his* hand is good, then you have 14-ish outs to a better hand. If *your* hand is good, he has 4-6 (plus some if he's on a flush draw himself) outs to a better hand; he is not very likely at all to beat you on the next card. You're not giving up much equity if all he has is two overs if you just call. He might even only have one. If you raise and he reraises, you either have to call all your chips (not a good move with stacks this deep), or fold a potential big winniner. You avoid this by not raising the turn. See the last card cheaply.

[grittybones 0]

Fantastic thread. Thanks for posting the hand, OP.

[TheSpartan 0]

What's your strat? To keep the pots small until you land a monster and then hang him. So why raise with a pot sized bet on the flop with mid pair and an inside straight draw when you KNOW he's going to raise you and make the pot big. Also, if your reads were right, you have to think the 1/2 pot sized leading bet on the turn means something.

[Gene zzz 0]

Why by the way raise with that hand, from the BB? Sure loosen up but thats a prime hand for a free ride? And folding after all them raises? Seeing his hand would have gave you at least some info for another time, I wouldn't have started with that hand you could save your money for a big raise from the BB with a Killer; I think the standard for those type of draws is cheapness maybe the nickels weren't anything to you.

[akishore 0]

the OP is a mistake, i'll edit it. if i'm button, i'm SB, so i didn't raise from the BB.and we weren't playing for nickels. i said in the OP that we were playing for a side wager and that this was the only deep-stacked game on poker stars.aseem

[Guest Anonymous]

I would think that raising from the SB is even worst. Sorry I don't know anything about side wagers and I do see c after 5 and another reply stating such, NL is a game of postion and paying to see the flop down there is a no no to anyone. But if you make a personal wager don't you know the player maybe the whole thing is a joke no?

[Gene zzz 0]

The guest is me, what a c is I don't know? Where at by the by? I thought this might be on the Web .

[Gene zzz 0]

Also if he is a very loose aggresive player why not wait for the big AA and drop the All-in on him? All you have to sense is if he has any luck for a draw right? I play poker stars test site and just enjoy the ride the mad men give me once they are so sure then I level them but poker an't meant to be played that way.

[akishore 0]

if you're the SB, you do have position postflop... the button is the SB when it's heads-up...and there's a difference between playing a passive game and nut-peddling.aseem