blind defense against a strong player, $1/2 limit he

[akishore 0]

$1/2 limit he, absolute poker, six-handedpre-flop: akishore is BB with 3 3 ...., CO raises ...CO is a strong, tricky, semi-loose/aggressive player.in fact, this is a common situation at the FCP strat table.what's your move here?(to be continued)aseem

[HtotheNootch 0]

$1/2 limit he, absolute poker, six-handedpre-flop: akishore is BB with 3 3 ...., CO raises ...CO is a strong, tricky, semi-loose/aggressive player.in fact, this is a common situation at the FCP strat table.what's your move here?(to be continued)aseem

Is CO the only one in the pot?

[akishore 0]

Is CO the only one in the pot?

yes. "..." means folds pre-flop.aseem

[HtotheNootch 0]

Is CO the only one in the pot?

yes. "..." means folds pre-flop.aseem

:oops: Do you think you can outplay this guy on the flop?I'm still at the stage where - for me, the best option is folding. I have three bet it against someone I think I can take the pot away from - but that's been in live games. If CO is real aggressive maybe a call would work because you can get a lot of bets from the player if you hit a set.It's a small pot. I probably fold.

[Vade 0]

$1/2 limit he, absolute poker, six-handedpre-flop: akishore is BB with 3 3 ...., CO raises ...CO is a strong, tricky, semi-loose/aggressive player.in fact, this is a common situation at the FCP strat table.what's your move here?(to be continued)aseem

Well obviously folding isn't an option. I'd try a three bet because I want to show that he can't just steal my blind.

[Absolute 0]

call.being out of position against a strong tricky player sucks.

[Smasharoo 0]

Well obviously folding isn't an option.I'd fold it.CO can have any two cards here and you have no visability postflop unless you flop a set.

[PrtyPSux 0]

this gets hard in the strat table.

[econ_tim 0]

Well obviously folding isn't an option.I'd fold it.CO can have any two cards here and you have no visability postflop unless you flop a set.

What if he has an overpair to the flop?

[akishore 0]

let's consider a few things:1. the raise is from the cutoff, not from early position.2. the raiser is position-aware.3. the raiser is strong post-flop.4. you are out of position.5. this is a six-max game, which means it's on the aggressive side, and blind steals are commonplace.because of these reasons, i think calling is correct.folding is a little weak/tight... we can expect this strong, semi-loose/aggressive player to be raising your blinds a lot if you're folding even pairs against him. if villian raised from first or second position, we would give him more credit and folding is more correct, but here, his range of raising hands is pretty big.but, three-betting is not good. absolute nailed it on the head--being out of position against a strong player sucks. a strong player can simply make it four bets to go to retain control of the hand, and now you find yourself in a sticky spot 88.5% of the time on the flop, out of position with a very weak hand against a strong player. also, three-betting to say "don't steal my blinds" won't impress a strong player by any means. against a weak player, three-betting can be correct because it'll make them back down later and you can often win the pot on the flop, but against a strong player, you're overplaying your hand.here, since your small pocket pair is playable, you should just call.(note: folding isn't horrible. CO is kind of the middle area... if the raise came from the button, folding would probably be wrong. likewise, if the raise came from MP, folding might be correct. folding is a little on the tight side, but it's not that bad. i just think that you have to call in these spots to prevent getting run over.)EDIT: one strong reason to call is that your implied odds post-flop against an aggressive blind steal are tremendous if you flop a set. even if you lean towards folding, calling with the intention of check/folding a missed flop can often be correct because of good implied odds (the exception is if the villian knows you only give action when you have a hand).so, let's review the action:pre-flop: akishore is BB with 3 3 ...., CO raises.flop: J 6 2 (4.5 SB, 2 players)akishore ...what's your move here?(to be continued)aseem

[akishore 0]

by the way, i think a few of you misunderstand the idea of "outplaying" someone.obviously, if you're not one of the favorites at the table, you shouldn't be sitting there. so, we assume we're one of the best players (if not the best player) at the table.second, outplaying someone post-flop doesn't mean bluffing and check-raising and getting them to fold. it just means making correct decisions more often. oftentimes, this can simply mean having the discipline to check-fold when you're fairly certain you're beat. sometimes it can mean check-calling when you know you have a decent chance of winning this pot but raising has negative expectation.because CO is a strong player, you can be more inclined to fold if you're not a good player. but, like i said, we can reasonably assume we're strong ourselves.aseem

[econ_tim 0]

In my normal game (1/2 full ring) I check/fold 33 on this flop even against a know blind steal. I'll think about whether there's a reason for a different play in this setting.

[Smasharoo 0]

folding is a little weak/tight... we can expect this strong, semi-loose/aggressive player to be raising your blinds a lot if you're folding even pairs against him.Most people don't defend with 33.It's really a pretty shitty hand to defend with.I think you're confused somewhere.

[Smasharoo 0]

1. the raise is from the cutoff, not from early position.2. the raiser is position-aware.3. the raiser is strong post-flop.4. you are out of position.5. this is a six-max game, which means it's on the aggressive side, and blind steals are commonplace.because of these reasons, i think calling is correct.Hi, these are all reasons calling is *incorrect*.You have a hand that can be played well postflop provided you can put the raiser on a range of hands. Because it's a raise from the C/O in a six max game you really can't do that.You're better off defending with 72o here, at least you'd have a better idea where you were after most flops.

[akishore 0]

folding is a little weak/tight... we can expect this strong, semi-loose/aggressive player to be raising your blinds a lot if you're folding even pairs against him.Most people don't defend with 33.It's really a pretty censored hand to defend with.I think you're confused somewhere.

like i said, folding isn't completely bad. it's a gray area.still, just on the prospect of hitting a set alone, it's worth investing one bet to me.*shrug*aseem

[Smasharoo 0]

still, just on the prospect of hitting a set alone, it's worth investing one bet to me. You can see why this is wrong, can't you?This isn't NL.

[idiotbocs 0]

folding shouldn't be an option.i think 3-betting would be more correct than folding.I call...on this flop, i either check/raise or check/call and then lead the turn (call down if raised).I probably check/fold if the flop had an ace in it.

[Smasharoo 0]

i think 3-betting would be more correct than folding.Why?Seriously, how is 33 an better than 74o here?

[akishore 0]

i have to go out, i'll be back later.aseem

[Abbaddabba 0]

Because you're getting better equity against the range of hands he could be holding, weighted by the probability of him holding each.Just as the prospect of hitting a set isn't as valuable in limit as it is in no limit - neither is visibility.

[Smasharoo 0]

Because you're getting better equity against the range of hands he could be holding, weighted by the probability of him holding each. Marginally better against some hands.This is a stupid hand to defend with just as it's a stupid hand to limp with UTG in a not very loose game.

[PrtyPSux 0]

I like this discussion, I have no worthy imput.....continue.

[akishore 0]

still, just on the prospect of hitting a set alone, it's worth investing one bet to me. You can see why this is wrong, can't you?This isn't NL.

you're getting 3.5-to-1 on pot odds alone. to make calling one bet profitable, you have to earn 5 more small bets by the end of the hand.if you can get a bet in on each round, that does it. if you get a raise in on any round, you have overlay. sometimes, you get outdrawn even when you hit your set, and sometimes your opponent doesn't pay you off, but the large overlay you get when he gets aggressive balances that out (the times you can put in a three or even four bets on fourth street, for example).our villian is aggressive, right?why is it wrong?aseem

[dakielbasa 0]

I'm going to let you in a little secret. First off I don't know how you play games but what I would do in this position would be something that will help me later in on the game. For example, if this was a player that is superior to me and I'm not around to fool around with the good players (because im h ere to make $ off the bad ones) I would do the occasional raise so that I prove to him that he can't steal my blinds.... remember you dont have to do this all the time!!!! You only have to win 30% of the blinds to break even (if you are just stealing blinds).

[akishore 0]

1. the raise is from the cutoff, not from early position.2. the raiser is position-aware.3. the raiser is strong post-flop.4. you are out of position.5. this is a six-max game, which means it's on the aggressive side, and blind steals are commonplace.because of these reasons, i think calling is correct.Hi, these are all reasons calling is *incorrect*.You have a hand that can be played well postflop provided you can put the raiser on a range of hands. Because it's a raise from the C/O in a six max game you really can't do that.You're better off defending with 72o here, at least you'd have a better idea where you were after most flops.

1. raise is from the cutoff, not early position.your thought: we can't put him on a narrow range of hands, so we can't play it well postflop.my thought: he has a wide range of hands to raise with here, and we have a hand that's a favorite against most of those. if he raises 7-4 offsuit here, our hand is huge. he misses the flop with any non-pair 2/3 of the time. sometimes, we can get him to lay down a better hand specifically because his wide range of hands isn't all premium hands that have strong showdown value.2. raiser is position-aware.(similar to #1)3. raiser is strong post-flop.your thought: we should be avoiding pots with him and not defending with a marginal hand.my thought: this is just the reason to not three-bet; it doesn't justify not playing the hand at all. if we continuously fold our blind to his steals just because we don't want to get involved, we're going to get run over.4. you are out of position.your thought: out of position against a strong player, etc.my thought: you're correct, but i see it more as reason not to three-bet than as reason not to play at all.5. blind steals are commonplace.your thought: ?my thought: you have to play many more marginal hands and defend much more. this is a good enough hand to defend with.you're right that 3-3 has low visibility post-flop. still, i don't think that's a strong enough reason to fold for one bet.just out of curiousity, take an extreme example. assume he open-raises your blind every time he's in the CO. what do you defend with?aseem