20 replies to this topic

[Bonedust]

Should I just check fold this hand or throw in a cont bet?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)UTG ($50.15)MP ($38.75)Button ($17.10)Hero ($147.70)BB ($80.50)Preflop: Hero is SB with A , A . UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.50, MP calls $2.50, Button calls $2.50.Flop: ($12.50) 9 , Q , J (4 players)Hero bets $7, UTG calls $7, MP raises to $35.75, Button folds, Hero folds, UTG folds.Final Pot: $33.50

[HollywoodAFD]

Fold...now

[nomad_monad]

raise more preflop - you'll be out of position the entire hand. it's more important to cut down on the implied odds that players with position on you could be getting.once that gross-ass flop hits, bet the size of the pot. your hand is still often good and with so many players in the hand and a draw heavy board like this, charge the max. it also goes a ways towards deterring one-card draw semibluffs. as played it's a fold.don't ever check-fold this.

[NoBBiR]

HollywoodAFD, on Monday, February 11th, 2008, 8:07 PM, said:

Fold...now

nomad_monad, on Monday, February 11th, 2008, 10:30 PM, said:

raise more preflop - you'll be out of position the entire hand. it's more important to cut down on the implied odds that players with position on you could be getting.once that gross-ass flop hits, bet the size of the pot. your hand is still often good and with so many players in the hand and a draw heavy board like this, charge the max. it also goes a ways towards deterring one-card draw semibluffs. as played it's a fold.don't ever check-fold this.

Do not pot the flop unless you are not going to fold no matter what, which is silly. I would bet a bit more though. Maybe a little more preflop too, but not anymore than $3.50, TBH.To be completely honest with you, I'm stacking off on this flop for 70bbs just because it is so incredibly drawy. I don't know if you've ever heard of the phase, "I'm not folding Aces for 100bbs on any flop," but I like to take that one to heart. It is much more likely (despite the fact that we are likely going to have to fade a lot of out) that he is drawing when he shoves this flop, than not. Getting 2.2:1, I personally would stack off (if I was sure the guy would be could be doing this with a draw), but someone could correct me if my thought process is wrong. If he was deeper, sure a fold is probably better, but 70bbs is a stretch for folding Aces.The guy who calls in the middle could dictate a fold, but it's fairly likely he is on a draw or TP type hand since he just flat called.

[nomad_monad]

NoBBiR, on Monday, February 11th, 2008, 11:35 PM, said:

Do not pot the flop unless you are not going to fold no matter what, which is silly. I would bet a bit more though. Maybe a little more preflop too, but not anymore than $3.50, TBH.

But here's the thing: I am ok with stacking off to MP if it's just us and him due to stack sizes. Potting it makes it much more likely we trigger an isolation scenario. Plus, it's not entirely true that if we pot, we should never fold. If we pot and get raised by UTG (which didn't happen here obviously), I think it's a pretty clear fold.

Quote

The guy who calls in the middle could dictate a fold, but it's fairly likely he is on a draw or TP type hand since he just flat called.

This is actually why I think this should be a fold as played.The guy in the middle dictates a fold not because of what we think he has, but because MP is pushing over a bet and a call, with button still left to act. It certainly could be a squeeze by the MP (putting UTG on exactly what you think he has), but at 50NL, I think it's playing out a lot more straightforwardly - i.e. we're in trouble. Add in the occasional slowplay by UTG flatting our lead, and this gets messy real quick.

[Royal_Tour]

NoBBiR, on Monday, February 11th, 2008, 11:35 PM, said:

Do not pot the flop unless you are not going to fold no matter what, which is silly. I would bet a bit more though. Maybe a little more preflop too, but not anymore than $3.50, TBH.To be completely honest with you, I'm stacking off on this flop for 70bbs just because it is so incredibly drawy. I don't know if you've ever heard of the phase, "I'm not folding Aces for 100bbs on any flop," but I like to take that one to heart. It is much more likely (despite the fact that we are likely going to have to fade a lot of out) that he is drawing when he shoves this flop, than not. Getting 2.2:1, I personally would stack off (if I was sure the guy would be could be doing this with a draw), but someone could correct me if my thought process is wrong. If he was deeper, sure a fold is probably better, but 70bbs is a stretch for folding Aces.The guy who calls in the middle could dictate a fold, but it's fairly likely he is on a draw or TP type hand since he just flat called.

huh?? how can u say potting is bad, but stacking off for 70bbs is fine?I think you're backwards here. I agree with Nomad, i'd pot this flop, fold to a raise from anyone other than shorty.

[nomad_monad]

i should add: MP raising over our bet and UTG's call isn't just a matter of signaling strength. If you assume that UTG is calling here quite a bit with just a draw, the card removal effect on MP's hand range for his shove isn't so good for us.

[mtdesmoines]

I don't really consider betting a flop when we hold AA a "continuation bet." My idea of a c-bet is betting a hand that needs to hit to improve (e.g. AQ), regardless of whether it hit or not. I can find reasons for calling and folding. Mostly folding. Most of them have to do with not having the As in our hand and any A hit for a set just completes that many more draws.

[ROBBBIGG]

I don't even cbet this flop. I check/fold here 100% of the time unless this is live and flips up a hand I can actually call/raise against. I think when 4 people see a flop that is so so connected you're never just c-betting the flop and taking it down.

[StilettoNole]

I think I would have raised more pre-flop. Something like $4.50. I don't to play this hand OOP against FOUR people. Charge them to stay in the hand.As played, I think I bet/fold as well.

[NoBBiR]

Royal_Tour, on Tuesday, February 12th, 2008, 12:33 AM, said:

huh?? how can u say potting is bad, but stacking off for 70bbs is fine?I think you're backwards here. I agree with Nomad, i'd pot this flop, fold to a raise from anyone other than shorty.

That's exactly why it's stupid to pot. If we are going to fold if someone else comes over the top, than we can bet 3/4 to 4/5 of the pot and accomplish the same thing with less risk. Just straight potting because there is a pot button, or because it's easier than estimating 75% of the pot is stupid. The pot button on full tilt is just the donkbutton.

[Acid_Knight]

Hero played the hand well IMO. Preflop is a 6BB raise, which is bigger than anyone should be calling with speculative hands. On the flop, the bet is fine. C/F is pretty weak and potting the flop is too strong. I might have bet slightly more, but it doesn't really matter much in the end. Nice hand.

[nomad_monad]

NoBBiR, on Tuesday, February 12th, 2008, 8:06 AM, said:

That's exactly why it's stupid to pot. If we are going to fold if someone else comes over the top, than we can bet 3/4 to 4/5 of the pot and accomplish the same thing with less risk. Just straight potting because there is a pot button, or because it's easier than estimating 75% of the pot is stupid. The pot button on full tilt is just the donkbutton.

We're not potting because there's a pot button or because we're lazy.We're potting because there's like a brazillion draws on the board and 3 other players left to act.This has already been covered: FAQ

[Acid_Knight]

nomad_monad, on Tuesday, February 12th, 2008, 8:38 AM, said:

We're not potting because there's a pot button or because we're lazy.We're potting because there's like a brazillion draws on the board and 3 other players left to act.This has already been covered: FAQ

NoBBir is right. Since we're going to fold to any resistence here, betting 3/4 of the pot accomplishes everything that betting the full pot does, but at a lower risk to ourselves. It's highly unlikely that anyone will react differently to a 3/4 PSB than they would to a full PSB. It just costs us more money on the multiple occasions where we bet and get raised here.

[ROBBBIGG]

I went to the grocery store and have been thinking about this hand. Yeah, Aces is a great hand and all but our plan on this hand HAS to be give up on this hand if there is resistance. Given 3 other people saw this flop, when we think about what sort of ranges villains are likely to be calling with, this flop is hit HARD by those sorts of ranges, pretty much anything that isn't a pocket pair looking to hit a set (and a set could've been hit here) is hitting this flop. So, what does a bet accomplish? What is the likelyhood we assign us betting this and taking it down on the flop? This is roughly the worst or second worst flop for pocket Aces (without the spade), so I think we'll show more profit to just check/fold here.

[psujohn]

A set is hit here by people who limp/call with QQ or JJ? Besides possibly 99 (which most players will still raise pf) there aren't a lot of set's out there. There are plenty of two pairs, flopped straights and monster draws out there though.I've taken to increasing the size of my pre-flop raises after multiple limpers if the limpers are particularly loose. Not because it'll fold them out but because they'll call and put more money in when I'm a big favorite. I've seen tons of 60+ VPIP players lately for some strange reason. I'd probably make it at least $4 pre flop and possibly $5 if one or two of the limpers are way loose but there's really nothing wrong with it as played.

[ROBBBIGG]

psujohn, on Tuesday, February 12th, 2008, 12:00 PM, said:

A set is hit here by people who limp/call with QQ or JJ? Besides possibly 99 (which most players will still raise pf) there aren't a lot of set's out there. There are plenty of two pairs, flopped straights and monster draws out there though.I've taken to increasing the size of my pre-flop raises after multiple limpers if the limpers are particularly loose. Not because it'll fold them out but because they'll call and put more money in when I'm a big favorite. I've seen tons of 60+ VPIP players lately for some strange reason. I'd probably make it at least $4 pre flop and possibly $5 if one or two of the limpers are way loose but there's really nothing wrong with it as played.

Yup, when I'm playing someone who is likely to see the flop regardless I tighten up my range a bit and start charging more preflop and on the flop because it maximizes value and ensures that if they want to play a pot with me it's going to be a big one.

[NoBBiR]

nomad_monad, on Tuesday, February 12th, 2008, 8:38 AM, said:

We're not potting because there's a pot button or because we're lazy.We're potting because there's like a brazillion draws on the board and 3 other players left to act.This has already been covered: FAQ

What's the difference between potting and giving someone 2:1 as opposed to 3/4 betting and giving someone 2.5:1? That's pricing out a flush draw or a straight draw anyway.If they shove, we save money. Plain and simple. I'm all for saving money when it's possible. Betting the pot because you're afraid of draws is silly. Pricing someone off of a draw while still allowing yourself to fold if someone with over 100bbs shoves, and saving money > potting the flop because it looks stronger or whatever.

[maxima191]

I'd bet one more time.

[mtdesmoines]

NoBBiR, on Tuesday, February 12th, 2008, 1:13 PM, said:

What's the difference between potting and giving someone 2:1 as opposed to 3/4 betting and giving someone 2.5:1? That's pricing out a flush draw or a straight draw anyway.If they shove, we save money. Plain and simple. I'm all for saving money when it's possible. Betting the pot because you're afraid of draws is silly. Pricing someone off of a draw while still allowing yourself to fold if someone with over 100bbs shoves, and saving money > potting the flop because it looks stronger or whatever.

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