19 replies to this topic

[kcb]

What are some give-aways that you are up against a set? I played a hand today where I flopped top pair when I was in the BB. I played it badly and lost 1/3rd of my stack. I had a really hard time letting go of my hand, because TPTK is ahead of him most times he is involved in a hand. Before I got to join the table, I had witnessed the villain calling flop bets with middle pair or backdoor flush draws, with one overcard, etc. He hadn't had to rebuy yet, but I was hoping to change that.So after this hand, I was thinking "what should be a dead give-away that I'm up against a set?" and I really couldn't think of a lot of things. One is if the pot is unraised and the villain check/calls the flop and leads the turn or check/raises the flop (in other words, giving a lot of action). Of course, other things go into consideration, too. For example, if there are any draws on the board he could be semi-bluffing with, or if he would play the same way with top pair, second-best kicker.I was hoping you guys could help me out. Thank you.

[David_Nicoson]

kcb, on Sunday, March 19th, 2006, 10:40 PM, said:

What are some give-aways that you are up against a set? I played a hand today where I flopped top pair when I was in the BB. I played it badly and lost 1/3rd of my stack. I had a really hard time letting go of my hand, because TPTK is ahead of him most times he is involved in a hand. Before I got to join the table, I had witnessed the villain calling flop bets with middle pair or backdoor flush draws, with one overcard, etc. He hadn't had to rebuy yet, but I was hoping to change that.So after this hand, I was thinking "what should be a dead give-away that I'm up against a set?" and I really couldn't think of a lot of things. One is if the pot is unraised and the villain check/calls the flop and leads the turn or check/raises the flop (in other words, giving a lot of action). Of course, other things go into consideration, too. For example, if there are any draws on the board he could be semi-bluffing with, or if he would play the same way with top pair, second-best kicker.I was hoping you guys could help me out. Thank you.

I usually know because they push all my chips over to the other guy.(Paraphrasing someone's comment from rgp.)Sniffing out sets is hard, but I think your post is on the right track.

[Dratj]

kcb, on Sunday, March 19th, 2006, 7:40 PM, said:

What are some give-aways that you are up against a set? I played a hand today where I flopped top pair when I was in the BB. I played it badly and lost 1/3rd of my stack. I had a really hard time letting go of my hand, because TPTK is ahead of him most times he is involved in a hand. Before I got to join the table, I had witnessed the villain calling flop bets with middle pair or backdoor flush draws, with one overcard, etc. He hadn't had to rebuy yet, but I was hoping to change that.So after this hand, I was thinking "what should be a dead give-away that I'm up against a set?" and I really couldn't think of a lot of things. One is if the pot is unraised and the villain check/calls the flop and leads the turn or check/raises the flop (in other words, giving a lot of action). Of course, other things go into consideration, too. For example, if there are any draws on the board he could be semi-bluffing with, or if he would play the same way with top pair, second-best kicker.I was hoping you guys could help me out. Thank you.

You just don't know but remember TPTK is not a strong hand. Don't commit your whole stack with just one pair. Proceed cautiously if there are no apparent draws and someone smooth calls you in position. They likely have flopped a set and will raise you on the turn for all your chips. If they raise you on the flop then you can let your TPTK go easily unless your up against a maniac, in which case I would pay him off because most times you would have him beat.

[macphec]

Dratj, on Sunday, March 19th, 2006, 8:55 PM, said:

You just don't know but remember TPTK is not a strong hand. Don't commit your whole stack with just one pair. Proceed cautiously if there are no apparent draws and someone smooth calls you in position. They likely have flopped a set and will raise you on the turn for all your chips. If they raise you on the flop then you can let your TPTK go easily unless your up against a maniac, in which case I would pay him off because most times you would have him beat.

THis is good advice. The turn min raise after a smooth call on the flop is often a dead giveaway as well

[....Ian....]

just ask "you got a set?"

[PotemkinCity]

....Ian...., on Monday, March 20th, 2006, 11:53 AM, said:

just ask "you got a set?"

what he said, sometimes they even tell me.althouigh the check on the flop, then check/raise on turn if a scare card comes up are dead giveaways, or when you get raised an extreme ammount on an unco-ordinated board on the river it is a a good sign.

[drew4523]

kcb, on Sunday, March 19th, 2006, 7:40 PM, said:

What are some give-aways that you are up against a set? I played a hand today where I flopped top pair when I was in the BB. I played it badly and lost 1/3rd of my stack. I had a really hard time letting go of my hand, because TPTK is ahead of him most times he is involved in a hand. Before I got to join the table, I had witnessed the villain calling flop bets with middle pair or backdoor flush draws, with one overcard, etc. He hadn't had to rebuy yet, but I was hoping to change that.So after this hand, I was thinking "what should be a dead give-away that I'm up against a set?" and I really couldn't think of a lot of things. One is if the pot is unraised and the villain check/calls the flop and leads the turn or check/raises the flop (in other words, giving a lot of action). Of course, other things go into consideration, too. For example, if there are any draws on the board he could be semi-bluffing with, or if he would play the same way with top pair, second-best kicker.I was hoping you guys could help me out. Thank you.

I think you could get better advice if you posted the hand history

[nomad_monad]

The harder situations I've come across are below:Situation 1 - opponent plays draws from position aggressivelyFlop (raised pot - you raised, opponent just called preflop)10d 6h 2hYou hold QQYou pot it, the opponent comes over the top with a raise. Is he semi-bluffing with a heart draw, or is he protecting a set from the heart flush draw? Or is he just plain ahead with bigger pockets?Harder than a situation where you get check-raised on this board, since it usually means you're behind because it is much less common for an opponent to semi-bluff from OOP.Situation 2 - opponent plays top/mid pair aggressivelyFlop (unraised pot)10c 6h 2cYou hold K-10 (neither are clubs)Opponent checks, you pot it, he check-raises 3x your bet. In both of these situations, I have to admit I am usually pretty lost. An opponent could be crushing me with a set, or I could be ahead to an aggressively played draw or top/mid pair. In the first situation, I usually call the raise and lead out on the turn if a blank falls. In the second situation, I usually muck.I guess it points out the value of fastplaying sets, because the kinds of raises you would be making with them are nearly identical to the ones you'd be making with non-set hands. People who lean towards slowplaying sets are much easier to pick up on.

[Dratj]

nomad_monad, on Monday, March 20th, 2006, 4:35 PM, said:

The harder situations I've come across are below:Situation 1 - opponent plays draws from position aggressivelyFlop (raised pot - you raised, opponent just called preflop)10d 6h 2hYou hold QQYou pot it, the opponent comes over the top with a raise. Is he semi-bluffing with a heart draw, or is he protecting a set from the heart flush draw? Or is he just plain ahead with bigger pockets?Harder than a situation where you get check-raised on this board, since it usually means you're behind because it is much less common for an opponent to semi-bluff from OOP.Situation 2 - opponent plays top/mid pair aggressivelyFlop (unraised pot)10c 6h 2cYou hold K-10 (neither are clubs)Opponent checks, you pot it, he check-raises 3x your bet. In both of these situations, I have to admit I am usually pretty lost. An opponent could be crushing me with a set, or I could be ahead to an aggressively played draw or top/mid pair. In the first situation, I usually call the raise and lead out on the turn if a blank falls. In the second situation, I usually muck.I guess it points out the value of fastplaying sets, because the kinds of raises you would be making with them are nearly identical to the ones you'd be making with non-set hands. People who lean towards slowplaying sets are much easier to pick up on.

Sorry, but these situations are too vague. There is no info on preflop action. It would help to narrow down the opponents possible holdings. But i will do my best as follows:1) I think check raising 3x your pot bet out of position with a flush draw is very weird. I would assume the villian has a set or an overpair and not be on a flush draw. Would you play a flush draw like that? However, if for whatever reason you are 100 % sure that they are drawing, I would move all in immediately.2) Again, I think it strange in no limit for someone to check raise with middle pair 3x your pot bet, it's -EV in my opinion. It sounds more like a limit play to check raise with middle pair. Most of the time, I would lay my hand down if my pot sized bet is raised that much unless I'm against a maniac, in which case I would move all in if I was pretty sure I had him beat.I think it's a much better play to lead out pot size if you have a piece of the board and let the original raiser decide if he has you beat or not instead of check raising 3x his pot bet. It costs way too much to find out where you are.

[nomad_monad]

I think you might be misreading my post.

Dratj, on Monday, March 20th, 2006, 8:23 PM, said:

Sorry, but these situations are too vague. There is no info on preflop action.

Yes, the preflop situations are a little vague. In the first situation I just said raised pot, you were the raiser, opponent the caller. The second situation I said it was unraised. I really can't get more specific without posting specific hands. I was just trying to point out that on the flop, under a variety of preflop conditions, it is possible for an opponent who plays draws and top/mid pairs aggressively to also be fastplaying a set, which makes it a tough situation for me to handle against that type of person.

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1) I think check raising 3x your pot bet out of position with a flush draw is very weird.

Yes it is. In the situation I described though, your opponent is IN position. I said if he did it out of position, it's a much easier read.

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2) Again, I think it strange in no limit for someone to check raise with middle pair 3x your pot bet, it's -EV in my opinion. It sounds more like a limit play to check raise with middle pair. Most of the time, I would lay my hand down if my pot sized bet is raised that much unless I'm against a maniac, in which case I would move all in if I was pretty sure I had him beat.I think it's a much better play to lead out pot size if you have a piece of the board and let the original raiser decide if he has you beat or not instead of check raising 3x his pot bet. It costs way too much to find out where you are.

Yes, it's probably -EV unless you're incredibly good at reads to checkraise with mid-pair, unless you've got a draw as well. So let's just assume for the sake of argument that the opponent plays top pair aggressively like that. The board is not that coordinated in my example - only a flush draw there - and unlikely that villain could be playing the draw. So I'm saying one difficulty here is that the villain could be check-raising with top pair or with a set.Basically, I'm just trying to say the difficulty comes against an opponent who fastplays his sets in pretty much the same manner as draws and top pair. I have no good answer against an opponent like this. Do you?

[Dratj]

when you get check raised, it means the check raiser is out of position. he checks to you, you bet and then he raises. i.e. he did both the checking and raising. That's why I thought the villian was out of position in the 1st example.You checking and then him betting is not defined as a check raise. As for number 2, if you notice that your opponent is constantly check raising you with a variety of hands then you have to put your foot down eventually. however, you know one thing, he can't possibly have you beat everytime he does that. I would wait till I get a hand and trap him for his whole stack. I would lay down my top pair king kicker to his raise this time and wait for a better opportunity. I usually give my ooponents credit why i get check raised. It's not often that when I go over the top, that they fold because usually they have me beat.

[DonkSlayer]

nomad_monad, on Monday, March 20th, 2006, 7:35 PM, said:

The harder situations I've come across are below:Situation 1 - opponent plays draws from position aggressivelyFlop (raised pot - you raised, opponent just called preflop)10d 6h 2hYou hold QQYou pot it, the opponent comes over the top with a raise. Is he semi-bluffing with a heart draw, or is he protecting a set from the heart flush draw? Or is he just plain ahead with bigger pockets?Harder than a situation where you get check-raised on this board, since it usually means you're behind because it is much less common for an opponent to semi-bluff from OOP.Situation 2 - opponent plays top/mid pair aggressivelyFlop (unraised pot)10c 6h 2cYou hold K-10 (neither are clubs)Opponent checks, you pot it, he check-raises 3x your bet. In both of these situations, I have to admit I am usually pretty lost. An opponent could be crushing me with a set, or I could be ahead to an aggressively played draw or top/mid pair. In the first situation, I usually call the raise and lead out on the turn if a blank falls. In the second situation, I usually muck.I guess it points out the value of fastplaying sets, because the kinds of raises you would be making with them are nearly identical to the ones you'd be making with non-set hands. People who lean towards slowplaying sets are much easier to pick up on.

Are you playing Pot-Limit HE here? If not, why are you betting the pot? You're asking to get stuck in a sticky situation; forcing them to make some sort of play here. If they have a k-10, you want them to call. If they have a set, you want to get raised so you can fold on the turn. Unless you're playing with really deep stacks, getting a pot-size bet raised often commits you and/or him to this hand, and your variance will go up.

[nomad_monad]

Dratj, on Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 6:42 AM, said:

when you get check raised, it means the check raiser is out of position. he checks to you, you bet and then he raises. i.e. he did both the checking and raising. That's why I thought the villian was out of position in the 1st example.You checking and then him betting is not defined as a check raise.

Ok, if you read my initial post, I said "you pot it, he comes over the top"Then I said, "this is harder than a situation where you get check-raised." In other words, the situation is you're OOP, he raises you. This is a murkier situation than if you were in position and your opponent check-raises, because that would be a really strange way to play a semi-bluff draw.Please read my post again. I'm not trying to be a d*ck, but I don't need you to tell me what check-raising and OOP means. I mean, come on....

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As for number 2... I would wait till I get a hand and trap him for his whole stack. I would lay down my top pair king kicker to his raise this time and wait for a better opportunity. I usually give my ooponents credit why i get check raised. It's not often that when I go over the top, that they fold because usually they have me beat.

Yes I've tried that. It works well against maniacs who think you're just playing back at them. But people that know how to play LAG reasonably well seem to shut down if you re-raise or smooth call their check-raise. It becomes a pain because you either bleed off a bunch of chips and occasionally pick up a hand strong enough to make a stand only to have them shut down, or you have to make more stands (not necessarily reraise, but call to re-evaluate on the turn) with hands that aren't as strong.In Ace on the River, Barry Greenstein goes through a bunch of different adjustments to different types of play. He outlines the typical adjustment, and then what he considers the better adjustment. One of these is playing against a LAG. The typical adjustment is to wait for good hands to trap. He seems to think that the better adjustment is to become LAG yourself, although just a little bit less than your opponent.

[nomad_monad]

DonkSlayer, on Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 7:38 AM, said:

Are you playing Pot-Limit HE here? If not, why are you betting the pot? You're asking to get stuck in a sticky situation; forcing them to make some sort of play here. If they have a k-10, you want them to call. If they have a set, you want to get raised so you can fold on the turn. Unless you're playing with really deep stacks, getting a pot-size bet raised often commits you and/or him to this hand, and your variance will go up.

Assume you're playing with 100BB, which is typically the norm online.In a heads up, unraised pot, there can't be more than 2.5BB.You're saying that if I pot it on the flop (5 BB now), I am committed to this pot when facing a 3x my bet raise? (12.5 BB in pot after raise, 5 more BB to call)I've put 3.5% of my stack in before I get raised, and the pot is offering me 2.5-1 on my top pair-good kicker. I don't think this commits me at all.Regardless, fine, I was being a little sloppy with my example. Let's just assume that I lead out for 1/2 -2/3 the pot with K-10 and I get check-raised 3x that. Opponent plays sets like this as well as top pair. Got any advice for me donkslayer?

[Kaedin]

Here's how I spot sets:Villain did a lot of calling. He limped. Then he called a raise. Then he called he check/called a flop bet.But at some point, a meaningless card is going to come off, or maybe even on the flop depending on the action, and he's going to seemingly go MAD with raises!When this happens, slow down. Think. How do most people play medium pocket pairs preflop. How did the villain play this hand preflop. I think recall on preflop play is the most important aspect to picking out a set.But it all really depends on what levels you're playing at. micro limits up to $1-$2, some people do really stupid ****. You cant help it. You cant read it. You cant stop it, you can only hope to contain it.

[DonkSlayer]

nomad_monad, on Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 3:00 PM, said:

Assume you're playing with 100BB, which is typically the norm online.In a heads up, unraised pot, there can't be more than 2.5BB.You're saying that if I pot it on the flop (5 BB now), I am committed to this pot when facing a 3x my bet raise? (12.5 BB in pot after raise, 5 more BB to call)I've put 3.5% of my stack in before I get raised, and the pot is offering me 2.5-1 on my top pair-good kicker. I don't think this commits me at all.Regardless, fine, I was being a little sloppy with my example. Let's just assume that I lead out for 1/2 -2/3 the pot with K-10 and I get check-raised 3x that. Opponent plays sets like this as well as top pair. Got any advice for me donkslayer?

Nomad, I think I got caught doing 1 response to two situations.I do think you are close to pot-committed in the scenario where you hold QQ against the 10-high board, you raised and were called preflop. Say in $1-2 NL you raised to $8 preflop and were called by a non-blind, so we have $19 in the pot. You pot the flop ($19), he raises you $57 to $76, making the pot $95. You're calling here. You are 4.5-1 against an underpair preflop, and the only other beat is a slow-played monster, so you go broke if they get lucky or just plain have a great hand. You're right in saying he could easily be playing TP/TK in this situation or be putting you on AK-AQ.2nd situation is different. You pot the bet, he raises you 3x. We're at $12-$13 right now. This really isn't a hard decision to worry about a set, b/c you could be beat by TP/TK as well (don't really seem him having JJ or better in an unraised pot). I'm leaning toward a fold if you respect the player at all, because if you DO hit your K or another 10, you've still got issues, as he is likely not bluffing and the paired board improved his hand as well.

[srblan]

Situation 1, I'd have a hard time, but I'm leaning towards an all-in or fold. The problem here is that you are OOP, and calling, you are forcing a blank to come. If you have seen your opponent bluff-raise a lot, or if he's been playing back at you, I'd lean towards pushing. Otherwise, since you've shown strength preflop and he still played at you aggressively, I'd seriously consider folding. Definitely very read-dependent, though, I just don't really like calling here oop.Situation 2, I'd fold in a heartbeat. K-10 is a huge trap hand, and your opponent showed enough strength to warrant tossing it.

[nomad_monad]

srblan, on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 4:50 PM, said:

Situation 1, I'd have a hard time, but I'm leaning towards an all-in or fold. The problem here is that you are OOP, and calling, you are forcing a blank to come. If you have seen your opponent bluff-raise a lot, or if he's been playing back at you, I'd lean towards pushing. Otherwise, since you've shown strength preflop and he still played at you aggressively, I'd seriously consider folding. Definitely very read-dependent, though, I just don't really like calling here oop.Situation 2, I'd fold in a heartbeat. K-10 is a huge trap hand, and your opponent showed enough strength to warrant tossing it.

Yes, in situation #1, I really don't like to call either, and agree it's AI/fold (or just re-raise if stacks are deeper). The reason I mentioned it is because there have been several times where I pushed and happened to run into the set against someone who played draws exactly the same way. Just thought it might be worth mentioning on this topic because it seems like one of the more difficult situations.As for situation #2, you're right. There's no point in fighting over a smallish pot with just top pair/good kicker. If he's check-raising me with a worse hand, so be it. Better to find a sweeter spot to exact revenge.

[srblan]

nomad_monad, on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 4:59 PM, said:

Yes, in situation #1, I really don't like to call either, and agree it's AI/fold (or just re-raise if stacks are deeper). The reason I mentioned it is because there have been several times where I pushed and happened to run into the set against someone who played draws exactly the same way. Just thought it might be worth mentioning on this topic because it seems like one of the more difficult situations.

It certainly is. With that in mind, it might not be a total disaster to bet 3/4 of the pot. Yes, you are pricing draws in, but if you are up against an opponent that knows you are not weak-tight, and raises you in position anyway, it's fair to say that you are probably beat. This is one of the tougher situations for me to get away from, but i think you have to. Also, how many players in that game will fold a flush draw anyway?

[GABMAD]

It's pretty tough to tell when you're up against a set. But if a set has you beat, so do many other combinations. So it might be simpler to think whether or not the villain would bet this way with a hand that beats yours. In order to do that, some background information on the villain could be useful. So instead of trying to figure out whether he has a set, try to figure out how many hands he would bet this way that beat you, and how many hands he bets this way that you can beat, and than make your decision.