Voting For Seven-deuce Off

[neretva 0]

From the Immigration policy section of Barack Obamas official website:Work with MexicoObama and Biden believe we need to do more to promote economic development in Mexico to decrease illegal immigration. Yay!!! We have to send a portion of our hard-earned paycheck to the corrupt Mexican government. Somehow that will stop Mexicans from illegally crossing the border.If you vote for Obama, you are voting for this.Of course, the twisted non-logic that lead to this position is plainly in evidence in many other positions, but I found this one fatally bemusing.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

From the Immigration policy section of Barack Obamas official website:Work with MexicoObama and Biden believe we need to do more to promote economic development in Mexico to decrease illegal immigration. Yay!!! We have to send a portion of our hard-earned paycheck to the corrupt Mexican government. Somehow that will stop Mexicans from illegally crossing the border.If you vote for Obama, you are voting for this.Of course, the twisted non-logic that lead to this position is plainly in evidence in many other positions, but I found this one fatally bemusing.

Actually, the logic behind it is solid. you dont' see millions of canadians coming to the US illegally. Why? because they are a modern, post-industrial nation with good jobs, high standards of living, etc. The problem is, thinking that the US government can do much of anything to promote Mexico's socio-economic growth. Things like NAFTA might do it, but things like giving Mexico billions in some sort of weird subsidy won't. However, I imagine Obama's "promotion of economic development" will mean making a few speeches about it, but actually doing fck all.

[copernicus 0]

Actually, the logic behind it is solid. you dont' see millions of canadians coming to the US illegally. Why? because they are a modern, post-industrial nation with good jobs, high standards of living, etc. The problem is, thinking that the US government can do much of anything to promote Mexico's socio-economic growth. Things like NAFTA might do it, but things like giving Mexico billions in some sort of weird subsidy won't. However, I imagine Obama's "promotion of economic development" will mean making a few speeches about it, but actually doing fck all.

you say the logic is solid and then give several of the reasons it cant work. logic != proposing the impossible

[Sportsmack 0]

Actually, the logic behind it is solid. you dont' see millions of canadians coming to the US illegally. Why? because they are a modern, post-industrial nation with good jobs, high standards of living, etc. The problem is, thinking that the US government can do much of anything to promote Mexico's socio-economic growth. Things like NAFTA might do it, but things like giving Mexico billions in some sort of weird subsidy won't. However, I imagine Obama's "promotion of economic development" will mean making a few speeches about it, but actually doing fck all.

I originally read this as "porn-industrial." It now makes more sense.

[checkymcfold 0]

Actually, the logic behind it is solid. you dont' see millions of canadians coming to the US illegally. Why? because they are a modern, post-industrial nation with good jobs, high standards of living, etc.

this part is exactly right. riddling out how to go about this in precise terms is the hard part, though, but it's important to note when a basic approach is solid.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

you say the logic is solid and then give several of the reasons it cant work. logic != proposing the impossible

No, i'm saying the idea that in order to end illegal immigration, Mexico's economy has to grow be leaps and bounds ( though, in truth, it's not just Mexico.. plenty of Central and south america's are illegals too, and are just called Mexicans as a short hand). As long as there are poor, desperate people living in proximity to the United States, there will always be illegal immigration. If you think building walls will do anything but inconvenience the illegals and create jobs for coyotes, then you're high. Only two things can truly stop immigration. 1) the economic development of Mexico (which I don't feel is part of the US government's role, to pump money into Mexico's economy. Shit, at this point we have enough problems with our own economic development) or 2) eliminate the demand for illegal jobs in the US. How do you do that, you ask? By making it extremely expensive for companies that hire illegals. If you start putting bosses in jail or fining them real money for hiring illegals, the demand for undocumented labor would plummet. But no one really wants to do that. Why? because cheap illegal labor makes too many people rich. Anyone who talks sht about illegal immigration, but doesn't attack it from the demand side, is just talking empty sht.

[neretva 0]

The policy speaks for itself and needs no spin. The only reason to spin it is because one knows it's bad and decides it needs window dressing.The Obama policy specifically states that we need to do more to promote economic growth in Mexico. "We need to do more" is a sickening euphemism for misappropriating American tax dollars for the unearned benefit of Mexicans.A vote for Obama is a vote for these plainly stated policy positions.I think we should examine more of these policy positions and see if they make as tragically little sense as this one.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

The policy speaks for itself and needs no spin. The only reason to spin it is because one knows it's bad and decides it needs window dressing.The Obama policy specifically states that we need to do more to promote economic growth in Mexico. "We need to do more" is a sickening euphemism for misappropriating American tax dollars for the unearned benefit of Mexicans.A vote for Obama is a vote for these plainly stated policy positions.I think we should examine more of these policy positions and see if they make as tragically little sense as this one.

How would you stop illegal immigration, out of curiosity?

[nutzbuster 7]

Mexico is SOOO screwed up, and I have no idea why this is.That country could be (and should be) amazingly prosperous and successful, yet their system of government is appalling and their economy is shit.The resources down there are potentially endless, both recreational and industrial, and yet they continue to flail about economically. This makes NO sense to me.If that country was half of what it could be there would be a trickle of the current illegal problem lingering here, but I'll be damned if the USA should be the ones helping them out financially. They have more than enough other ways to pay for it.I just don't think they want to, or at least it doesn't appear that they do. Does this make any sense? Why would they not want to? Why does the system down there appear to want to maintain and foster a rich or poor society? I honestly would like to know. I've heard that that drug cartels down there have everyone by the nads, but is this really true?

[brvheart 1,752]

No, i'm saying the idea that in order to end illegal immigration, Mexico's economy has to grow be leaps and bounds ( though, in truth, it's not just Mexico.. plenty of Central and south america's are illegals too, and are just called Mexicans as a short hand). As long as there are poor, desperate people living in proximity to the United States, there will always be illegal immigration. If you think building walls will do anything but inconvenience the illegals and create jobs for coyotes, then you're high. Only two things can truly stop immigration. 1) the economic development of Mexico (which I don't feel is part of the US government's role, to pump money into Mexico's economy. Shit, at this point we have enough problems with our own economic development) or 2) eliminate the demand for illegal jobs in the US. How do you do that, you ask? By making it extremely expensive for companies that hire illegals. If you start putting bosses in jail or fining them real money for hiring illegals, the demand for undocumented labor would plummet. But no one really wants to do that. Why? because cheap illegal labor makes too many people rich. Anyone who talks sht about illegal immigration, but doesn't attack it from the demand side, is just talking empty sht.

I totally agree with this post. ESPECIALLY the bolded.

[checkymcfold 0]

Mexico is SOOO screwed up, and I have no idea why this is.That country could be (and should be) amazingly prosperous and successful, yet their system of government is appalling and their economy is shit.The resources down there are potentially endless, both recreational and industrial, and yet they continue to flail about economically. This makes NO sense to me.If that country was half of what it could be there would be a trickle of the current illegal problem lingering here, but I'll be damned if the USA should be the ones helping them out financially. They have more than enough other ways to pay for it.I just don't think they want to, or at least it doesn't appear that they do. Does this make any sense? Why would they not want to? Why does the system down there appear to want to maintain and foster a rich or poor society? I honestly would like to know. I've heard that that drug cartels down there have everyone by the nads, but is this really true?

the drug cartels are pretty insane down there, and they unfortunately have a fair amount of government influence. although they're not the whole problem, legalizing pot in the US would do a great deal to send them under.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Why would they not want to? Why does the system down there appear to want to maintain and foster a rich or poor society? I honestly would like to know. I've heard that that drug cartels down there have everyone by the nads, but is this really true?

Truer than you think. One way you could help all of Central and South america is by legalizing or at least decriminalizing drugs in the united states. It would take all the money and power out of the drug cartels that hold so much sway over central and south american countries, and help end the corruption, where many of their problems stem. Alot of it will just take time, however. And maybe a non-corrupt yet brutally centralized military dictatorship, but that's more of a theory than a fact. I think most third world countries would be better off with honest dictators than corrupt democracies.

[jmkiser 0]

A vote for Obama or McCain is a vote to ignore the immigrant situation.McCain only rambled about securing the borders during the primaries. He hasn't said a word about it since and when he was talking about it before running, he was on the other side.And the "secure the borders" thing doesn't separate him from Obama. Every politician says the same thing. I agree with BigD. Total physical border security isn't the sensible answer and possibly isn't even plausible. To address this issue, you have to get rid of the incentive. Penalties for people who hire illegal immigrants need to be serious enough for companies to wake up and change their business practices.Make it so that the only prosperous option for illegal immigrants is to attempt to become legal citizens. And if the public seriously wants an increase in legal immigration, then change the process.

[neretva 0]

How would you stop illegal immigration, out of curiosity?

This is a simple law enforcement problem. The usual proposals that are discussed but never implemented would work fine. A physical impediment in combination with a legal impediment would solve the problem immediately. The physical impediment would comprise combining technology and manpower to make illicit border crossing physically impossible. The legal impediment would comprise making it a punishable offense to hire undocumented workers.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

nm

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

This is a simple law enforcement problem. The usual proposals that are discussed but never implemented would work fine. A physical impediment in combination with a legal impediment would solve the problem immediately. The physical impediment would comprise combining technology and manpower to make illicit border crossing physically impossible. The legal impediment would comprise making it a punishable offense to hire undocumented workers.

Well, your second part is right on. The first part is fantasy. you will never be able to make it physically impossible to cross the border, unless you get star trek technology involving force shields and scanners. You can only make it inconvenient. Even if you put a wall up, illegals will still get smuggled across, by land sky and air. Now, making it a punishable offense would cut the demand for workers, that's very true, and it's also something I said in my post, if you'd bothered to read it, instead of just making a nonsense post about spin. Why don't you think we make laws to make it a punishable offense to hire illegals?

[AmScray 355]

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I'm not sure who that is, or what it's supposed to mean.. but I'm going to take a stab at it.... are you saying Jews don't want to pick fruit, so we have to hire cheap unskilled labor who is willing to pick it?

[neretva 0]

So how does a policy translate to legislation? According to Obama's website, like this:Respect Families: Obama introduced amendments to put greater emphasis on keeping immigrant families together. Notice how an insidious and sociopathic policy is encased in a delicious buttery frosting guaranteed to delight the senses? Who can argue with the Waltonesque goal of "keeping families together"? So an illegal crawls into America and procreates with another illegal. The result? A bambino who is an American citizen. Obamas policies would allow the 2 illegals to stay. In order to "keep immigrant families together". Oh and by the way, I believe Obama-Pelosi would support mandatory medical care for the illegal bambino and the illegal female who crawled into an American hospital to take advantage of our effed up system.If you vote for Obama you are voting for the policy goal, and voting for the amendments that allowed your tax dollars to be removed from your family and redistributed to the illegal Bambinos and the parents who cleverly crawled in and cleverly had conspiratorial sexual intercourse so as to produce a legal impediment to expulsion. -Marc

[vbnautilus 48]

The economic development of Mexico is the only thing that will decrease illegal immigration and save us the costs associated with that. Plus, we benefit by having a better economy in Mexico to do business with. I don't know what our government can do to improve Mexico though. As an aside, it would be nice to be able to cross the border without fear; it's gotten so bad that right now you're more likely to get raped in Rosarito than you are in federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison. The American people need their baja tacos and surf.Note that the OP has offered no argument against this policy.

[neretva 0]

From Obama's website:Bring People Out of the ShadowsObama and Biden support a system that allows undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.Again, notice the incredible perversion of language to spin evil policy into something palatable and benign: "Undocumented immigrants". WHAT THE EFF????? Exactly WHAT is an undocumented immigrant? Like it's a fait accompli, the ILLEGAL ALIEN has now become an immigrant. The only eency weency problem? The immigrant doesn't have documents. Like: "Oh I left my documents home, no biggie". There are no "undocumented immigrants". There are ILLEGAL ALIENS. People who intentionally broke the law and entered our country. Notice the further dilution: Undocumented immigrants who are in "GOOD STANDING" ?@#?%$?$%>? There is no effing good standing for someone who illegally crawled across the border and is stealing my money. And the piece de resistance: they can pay a fine, learn English, and GO TO THE BACK OF THE LINE FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO BECOME CITIZENS What effing line? Are they being deported to stand on a line to get back in??? No, they will be put on some stupid waiting list while they continue to create AFDC bambinos, stealing more of our hard-earned money, increasing our income tax, increasing our property tax, overburdening our schools, hospitals, and systems while all the while proudly refusing to learn the native language of the country they crawled into: English.A vote for Obama is a vote for this clearly stated policy. Clearly, that is, now that I have explained it.-Marc

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

So um.. just out of curiosity.. what's McCain's plan?

[neretva 0]

So um.. just out of curiosity.. what's McCain's plan?

McCain's plan emphasizes securing the border first using technology, fences, and personnel, and establishing a real-time electronic system to make it impossible to hire illegals.When you read the plan on his website, it's full of holes and not nearly as severe as it should be. But it does not pretend to be something it isn't. It honestly portrays itself as what it is, with the goal of preventing illegals from getting here and making it tougher on them if they get here. There's NO TALK OF GIVING EFFING AID TO MEXICO TO HELP THEIR ECONOMY so their nationals don't crawl here looking for jobs. There's no mention of "undocumented immigrants in good standing" or other putrescent euphemisms. Is it perfect? HELL TO THE NO, but you have to vote one way or the other.I prefer the irresolute and fitful honesty of McCain to the platitudinous vagary of Obama that is hypocritically designed to mask a policy as its diametrical opposite.

[AmScray 355]

I'm not sure who that is, or what it's supposed to mean.. but I'm going to take a stab at it.... are you saying Jews don't want to pick fruit, so we have to hire cheap unskilled labor who is willing to pick it?

Carlos Slim Helu

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Carlos Slim Helu

I bet 60 billion goes alot further in Mexico than it does in the US.