Good Or Bad Laydown?

[cashman 0]

I made a huge laydown the other day and I still am not certain it was a good laydown. I am about an hour into a live $90 deepstack (20k) mtt. I have approximately 18.5 chips when I get dealt 7H8H from middle pos. I limp in for 100 the SB calls and the BB raises to 400. The BB is a tight player so I know he has a big hand, but I've got the perfect type of hand to see a flop with so I call as does the SB. From what I can tell the SB is a very solid player who definitely knows what he is doing. The flop comes 9H10DJH. Weeeeeee!!!!! The SB comes out firing for 1200, the BB calls, and I reraise to 5K. I am thinking I will go ahead and take the 3600 in the pot and move on to the next hand. I was looking over my stack to calculate how big my stack is about to be when the SB reraises to 12K. The BB folds. Hmmmmm. Obviously I was not expecting a reraise. As I said, based on some table talk and his play to this point I know that the SB is a very solid player. I thought it over for about 2 minutes and finally laid it down. As far as I could tell he wanted me to call and gave me almost the exact odds I needed to make it. Even though I had a gutshot straight flush draw, I laid it down. Any thoughts?In case you are wondering, I showed him what I folded and asked him to PLEASE confirm that he had it, and he obliged. The only thing was that he did not have a heart. Part of my decision was based on the fact that probably one, and maybe even both of those cards were hearts as well. As a side note, the BB did have pocket aces.

[Mr. Sparco 2]

Against KQ without a heart, you're still 37% to win. Against KQ with a heart you're 30%. The only thing that has you crushed is KhQh. There are 9 KQ combinations without a heart, 6 with one heart, and one with two hearts, so even if he tells you he has KQ, averaging over those you still have about 32% equity.If I get the numbers right, and assuming the rest of the money goes in no matter what, you're paying about 13k to win about twice that amount, so you need about 33-34% equity. So even if you're 100% sure he has KQ, it is very close to a correct call/shove.Given that he will show up with sets and random draws as well, there's no way I can fold this.

[dead money 1]

Stack sizes help. It would help to figure out how wide SB's range is.

[RakeMyBlind 0]

If I play 78s and flop a straight with a flush draw my chips get into the middle on that flop. I agree with Mr. Sparco, the few times he shows up with KQ don't compare to the times he shows up with sets/draws.

[cashman 0]

Stack sizes help. It would help to figure out how wide SB's range is.

Everyone in the hand had between 16K and 22K. SB hadn't played a lot of hands.

[cashman 0]

If I play 78s and flop a straight with a flush draw my chips get into the middle on that flop. I agree with Mr. Sparco, the few times he shows up with KQ don't compare to the times he shows up with sets/draws.

In live play he doesn't reraise a huge raise w/out the nuts. He was a strong player and I had no doubt he had KQ. He's not going broke this early w/a set and such a draw heavy board.

[TrueAce13 18]

never ever folding

[Tehtoe 3]

In live play he doesn't reraise a huge raise w/out the nuts. He was a strong player and I had no doubt he had KQ. He's not going broke this early w/a set and such a draw heavy board.

As Sparco said, even if he has KQ it's still extremely close to a correct call; there's certainly a possibility that your read isn't that good too and he can def have other hands in his range here so always call. Also, why are you raising with the intention of "picking up the pot and moving on"? You have the 2nd nuts, I would think you would want...value, or something crazy.

[cashman 0]

As Sparco said, even if he has KQ it's still extremely close to a correct call; there's certainly a possibility that your read isn't that good too and he can def have other hands in his range here so always call. Also, why are you raising with the intention of "picking up the pot and moving on"? You have the 2nd nuts, I would think you would want...value, or something crazy.

There was a large bet of 1200 and a snap call before it got to me. If the SB has something like AHQH I want them both to just go away. Trust me when I say that I had no doubt this guy had the top end when he reraised me. No other hand one make sense. Decent payouts and live play the play is much truer than online. There was absolutely no concern on his face when he bumped it up.

[TrueAce13 18]

There was a large bet of 1200 and a snap call before it got to me. If the SB has something like AHQH I want them both to just go away. Trust me when I say that I had no doubt this guy had the top end when he reraised me. No other hand one make sense. Decent payouts and live play the play is much truer than online. There was absolutely no concern on his face when he bumped it up.

Ok seriously, these joke accounts need to stop. I get put on life tilt.Your thought process is completely wrong in this hand. Don't post a hand "looking" for advice, and then just start a massive argument when everyone tells you that you are wrong. Learn poker. Your probably not good at all, read a book and some stuff online to get basic fundamentals of poker.And yes, I have played a ton live, the fields suck. This isn't just the nuts.

[trystero 0]

Ok seriously, these joke accounts need to stop. I get put on life tilt.

yea but you have to respect the effort, like....

Decent payouts and live play the play is much truer than online. There was absolutely no concern on his face when he bumped it up.

This is great

[cashman 0]

Ok seriously, these joke accounts need to stop. I get put on life tilt.Your thought process is completely wrong in this hand. Don't post a hand "looking" for advice, and then just start a massive argument when everyone tells you that you are wrong. Learn poker. Your probably not good at all, read a book and some stuff online to get basic fundamentals of poker.And yes, I have played a ton live, the fields suck. This isn't just the nuts.

LOL, instantly go to the insults. Don't you worry about me understanding the "fundamentals of poker." I have worked hard to improve my game over the years and I have done plenty of reading. The only one that made a good argument for the call was Sparco and I didn't disagree with him. He was right. I know it was a tight fold but I also had a read on the SB. Do you ever get reads on players or do you just make rash assumptions that they are all idiots? My question was, knowing that I was behind, should I have called anyway. I didn't really want to shove knowing I was behind but in the end I think I should have gone ahead and chased the flush anyway.Try to get better at your responses. I don't think anyone values someone chirping on w/smart ass comments and no real basis to defend your criticism of my play. Talk to Sparco as he may be able to teach how to articulate a sentence or two.

[rrumsey 0]

dude dont open limp man!

[SwolyswoND 1]

LOL, instantly go to the insults. Don't you worry about me understanding the "fundamentals of poker." I have worked hard to improve my game over the years and I have done plenty of reading. The only one that made a good argument for the call was Sparco and I didn't disagree with him. He was right. I know it was a tight fold but I also had a read on the SB. Do you ever get reads on players or do you just make rash assumptions that they are all idiots? My question was, knowing that I was behind, should I have called anyway. I didn't really want to shove knowing I was behind but in the end I think I should have gone ahead and chased the flush anyway.Try to get better at your responses. I don't think anyone values someone chirping on w/smart ass comments and no real basis to defend your criticism of my play. Talk to Sparco as he may be able to teach how to articulate a sentence or two.

This is exactly why people are jumping at you.You don't KNOW you're behind. You THINK you're behind. I don't care how good you think your read is. You can never put someone on two exact cards. Even if he is as tight as you say he is, he will still play this exact same way with 99, TT, JJ, or even Q8. TrueAce, which I'm pretty sure you don't want to be getting into a sparring match with over poker ability, is simply pointing out that you have to put opponents on a RANGE and act accordingly.Also, the reason why people are pissed is because you came to us asking for advice but instantly shot it all down and insisted you made the right decision. If you are so sure, why would you bother to ask on a forum?

[XXEddie 0]

LOL, instantly go to the insults. Don't you worry about me understanding the "fundamentals of poker." I have worked hard to improve my game over the years and I have done plenty of reading. The only one that made a good argument for the call was Sparco and I didn't disagree with him. He was right. I know it was a tight fold but I also had a read on the SB. Do you ever get reads on players or do you just make rash assumptions that they are all idiots? My question was, knowing that I was behind, should I have called anyway. I didn't really want to shove knowing I was behind but in the end I think I should have gone ahead and chased the flush anyway.Try to get better at your responses. I don't think anyone values someone chirping on w/smart ass comments and no real basis to defend your criticism of my play. Talk to Sparco as he may be able to teach how to articulate a sentence or two.

Where did he insult you?And WTF?!?!?! You say you 'know' you're behind but then you say you aren't sure if you should have gone ahead and chased the flush away...?

[HighwayStar 8]

Given how deep we are I don't hate flatting the flop bet.The idea of folding as played is bizarre, we are almost dead to 1 single combo, we're very live when behind and are ahead against the majority of his range. He is definitely gonna be jamming in money on this flop with sets when OOP.Also raise pre

[HighwayStar 8]

Actually raising here is better than flatting, if the pot was heads up I'd prefer a flat. Given the BB is in the pot too, you are missing too much value by not raising

[cashman 0]

This is exactly why people are jumping at you.You don't KNOW you're behind. You THINK you're behind. I don't care how good you think your read is. You can never put someone on two exact cards. Even if he is as tight as you say he is, he will still play this exact same way with 99, TT, JJ, or even Q8. TrueAce, which I'm pretty sure you don't want to be getting into a sparring match with over poker ability, is simply pointing out that you have to put opponents on a RANGE and act accordingly.Also, the reason why people are pissed is because you came to us asking for advice but instantly shot it all down and insisted you made the right decision. If you are so sure, why would you bother to ask on a forum?

Sorry, didn't mean to come off like I was insisting that I was right. I think I had a small case to defend the fold, but Mr. Sparco ran the numbers and proved that I pretty much had to call even if I saw his KQ. I understand you put players on ranges and that is what I usually try to do. This was one of the few times that I really believed I knew the exact two cards that he had. But of course you can never really know. Because sets and possibly even a nut flush draw were within his range I would say there really is no way I could fold. I have been trying to adhere to the small ball approach and it was early, but in the end I guess I needed to go ahead and take my chances here. Again, sorry if it came off like I was insisting I made the right decision. I was trying to explain my thinking during the hand and maybe I got a bit defensive. I am sure I am getting some advice from some excellent players and I don't want to my nose at suggestions that will help me improve my game.

[Tehtoe 3]

Glad to hear, that's a good attitude to have!Don't take any advice from me though, I'm terrible.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Don't take any advice from me though, I'm terrible.

It's true.

[LuckyDogg44044 0]

I see what some of the others are saying bout the numbers. And theyre right, but this is where playing people, and not video poker comes into play. And, this is where all poker theory comes together. In our search for poker excellence we try to make it as scientific, and remove as many of the variables as possible in order to make the best decision in any given circumstance. In fact, it makes perfect sense and I rely heavily on the numbers myself to tell me what to do in alot of spots. But people, by an act and choice of our own free will, are anything but a "constant". I think that this is where our highest EV is.......... paying attention to whats going on....with everybody....all the time. It makes a huge difference.......... if it were video poker????? your chips better find the middle of the table.......... but its a dude, and he has KQ, brother.

[TrueAce13 18]

joke accounts just keep gathering

[SwolyswoND 1]

I dunno if people think these joke accounts are funny, but all they do is piss us off. I honestly move for banning - this just makes FCP's already dwindling traffic less reputable.

[donk4life 34]

Glad to hear, that's a good attitude to have!Don't take any advice from me though, I'm terrible.

Glad to see you're coming to terms with it.

[cashman 0]

joke accounts just keep gathering

Trueace13, please don't read or respond to a post if I ever put one up again. I thought it might be good to get feedback and have a little bit of back and forth dialogue here. I don't have a problem with someone disagreeing with my play and pointing out why they disagree. I got some good feedback from most. However, every post I have seen you put on this site is basically a one liner criticizing everyone and everything they do. At least put in something helpful rather than calling people "jokes" and going on (and I love this one) "life tilt."You can disagree with a play I make and tell me that I am wrong. However, you should try to get just a little more creative and tell me WHY I am wrong. Instead, you see a description of how I played one hand that you think was misplayed and simply refer to me as a "joke account" and tell me that I need to "read a book about the fundamentals of poker." Maybe you are better than me and if so great. My hope was that I could use this as a forum to try and improve my game. I appreciate all of the people that offered up their opinions and backed it up with some rationale.