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I brought my girlfriend's boss up to the boat last night to teach him how to play. He's really rich, really interested and has really never played before. It's so bad that I think he might not even know what beats what. Anyway I couldn't buy in for max because I forgot my card and only had 200 on me. This was about 2 rotations in I had played and won one pot and was up about 30 bucks. SB - Old Vietnamese guy loose passive ~$150BB - Old White guy looks like Don Rickles same as above ~$180UTG - Black guy, mid fifties. Thinks he's a pro but playing way too many hands. ~$320UTG+1 - Bosnian Guy. Loose Aggressive. ~$1200 Hero - ~$230MP2 - Younger Finnish looking guy. Pretty decent TAG. ~$280HJ - Another Old Asian man. TAG Playing short @ around $65 so pumping pf or folding CO - Creepy looking, bottom heavy, Child Molester looking guy. Tight Passive. ~$350Button - Mid Forties, normal looking white guy. Disgusted and thinks he's better than everyone at table. LAG ~$480I noticed that button likes to 3-bet from the button but slows down if he is called. In any case though, he is not hiding the fact that he feels he is by far the best person at the table and is almost mad at all of us for not playing on the same level as him.All folds to me I make it $10 to go with two black queens. Everyone folds to Button who makes it $30 to go. I flat. Flop comes 10 5 3 rainbowed (Pot: $64)I check, he checks. Turn comes 6 putting a flush draw out there. I bet $50 he calls. River comes another 10 off suit. I have ~$150 left and he covers. What to do, what to do?I'll give results later.

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I don't know that I love the flat oop, I certainly don't like a flat-check. Unless you think he'll spew (and it dosent look like it) it seems like your just missing value here.The river is def a bet, I think I make it about 90 get value from hands like 77-99, or to induce a spew with two big cards that may have been a flush draw. The way the action went I expect him to have us beat pretty much never... im calling a shove This could have all been complete rubbish, you may wanna wait until somebody better comes in, but thats my two :club:

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If he is 3beting the button a lot then I think a 4bet should be in order. Especially early in the session. If you do call I think leading is better with your read since he will check behind flop way too often and giving away 4 cards to 2 random cards isn't fun. On river I would bet a bit under 1/2 pot. His most likely hands are pocket pairs and they probably fold to a big bet. I would bet/fold even though you are getting good odds to call a river shove because live players don't check back flops in 3 bet pots to bluff shove rivers, It would be top pair river'ed trips 100%

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i dont mind the line at all to be honest, and shove the river 100%. he calls with JJ. It seems he has marginal showdown value so he called the turn. but i hate to check call here unless villain is very aggro. Kinda a sucker spot bc we can shove and lose a decent %, but i still think it is netting a profit. I mean c/fing is alos an option if you feel like he never calls a shove with JJ, and he checked behind a ton. just depends if you think he can turn 99 into a bluff on the river or not

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def 4bet preI would bet/call on the river ( u beat most of his range i think)
120 in the pot, 150 in the stack, not enough room to b/c!!
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If he is 3beting the button a lot then I think a 4bet should be in order. Especially early in the session. If you do call I think leading is better with your read since he will check behind flop way too often and giving away 4 cards to 2 random cards isn't fun.
This is really important. If you 4bet him, he will hopefully shy away from 3betting you going forward. bc when you open your non premium hands you don't want table captain 3balling you all night.Also, with your stack size, 3b to $85 and shove the T high flop; $145 into $170ish, he can call with worse
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i dont mind the line at all to be honest, and shove the river 100%. he calls with JJ. It seems he has marginal showdown value so he called the turn. but i hate to check call here unless villain is very aggro. Kinda a sucker spot bc we can shove and lose a decent %, but i still think it is netting a profit. I mean c/fing is alos an option if you feel like he never calls a shove with JJ, and he checked behind a ton. just depends if you think he can turn 99 into a bluff on the river or not
JJ?
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What to do, what to do?
Given the reads I like the hand 100% so far since if he's slowing down when called 3bet... he'll probably be mucking to a lot of 4bets, but I'm torn on the river between check-calling and value shoving since I think they have close to equal value in a vacuum.If he's hero call happy ez shove. If he's pot steal happy ez check call. If we know neither then I think I like shoving... cuz the pro "knows" you don't have a ten therefore you must be bluffingread responses... isn't a 4bet more in order with AK/AQ rather than a hand we can trap with? Especially queens because if this shows down he may think we are incapable of 4betting without AA/KK... iono that's just me I'm not a 4bet happy guy
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I'll give results later.
I might 4-bet the button PF *IF* I think he thinks I'm just sick of him 3 betting everyone and he thinks I think he's just making a button raise. We need to know his image of you to think about how to play this hand best. We can milk his ego for a lot of value if we play him right.IF I 4 bet PF and he calls, I think checking the flop and betting any non-A turn might be super. But that's not what happened. IF I 4 bet PF and he shoves, I'm thinking about whether or not I can get chips in (prob yes) But that's not what happened.IF I 4 bet PF and he folds, oh well. But that's not what happened.As played to that point, I'm betting the flop ($50). That makes getting the $ in easier. But that's not what happened.As played to that point, I'm betting the turn harder and we just get it in there. But that's not what happened.As played to that point ... you know he kind of played this like AK or a middle PP or a suited A, and we're not getting any more chips no matter what, unless we think that audibly sighing on the river waving the white flag and then CRAI is a good play. But that's pretty fancy for a passive villain I think. I hate to not bet the river, but we might stimulate a bet that we can shove on if we do that.
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Given the reads I like the hand 100% so far since if he's slowing down when called 3bet... he'll probably be mucking to a lot of 4bets, but I'm torn on the river between check-calling and value shoving since I think they have close to equal value in a vacuum.If he's hero call happy ez shove. If he's pot steal happy ez check call. If we know neither then I think I like shoving... cuz the pro "knows" you don't have a ten therefore you must be bluffingread responses... isn't a 4bet more in order with AK/AQ rather than a hand we can trap with? Especially queens because if this shows down he may think we are incapable of 4betting without AA/KK... iono that's just me I'm not a 4bet happy guy
During the hand this was pretty much what I was thinking. I hadn't really seen him make any hero calls, his aggression came earlier in hands if he felt like he could blow someone off the hand. To show down he seemed to need a little sumpin sumpin. I didn't really know about pot stealing but as I said from my previous read I felt like if he was gonna steal he was gonna try and do it early in the hand rather than late. Again, this was only about two times around the table so I didn't really have enough of a HH to really make a clear judgement call.
As played to that point ... you know he kind of played this like AK or a middle PP or a suited A, and we're not getting any more chips no matter what, unless we think that audibly sighing on the river waving the white flag and then CRAI is a good play. But that's pretty fancy for a passive villain I think. I hate to not bet the river, but we might stimulate a bet that we can shove on if we do that.
Lol at the waving the white flag move (because of how it totally works sometimes) I don't think this guy was dumb enough for that one.
JJ?
This guy is betting flop 100% with JJ for value thinking I'm gonna call with my Ak/AQ.
This is really important. If you 4bet him, he will hopefully shy away from 3betting you going forward. bc when you open your non premium hands you don't want table captain 3balling you all night.Also, with your stack size, 3b to $85 and shove the T high flop; $145 into $170ish, he can call with worse
I see where you are coming from with the second part of this as it makes the hand much easier to play assuming he calls the 4-bet weak. I also understand the point of showing the table bully you aren't gonna deal with his shit but I agree with Ninja Ace in choosing a different hand than QQ. Two reasons: When he sees I flatted with queens he will either be A. Scared to three bet me in fear that I will flat him again big or B. Think that I am too scared to 4-bet queens and therefore start opening up his 3-betting range even larger where in which I can 4-bet him lighter than usual later on in the session and pick up some pretty nice pots. As I said before he wasn't completely spewing and was slowing down to resistance so I wasn't making anymore money if I 4-bet. I could easily be wrong but that's just what I was seeing from him.
If you do call I think leading is better with your read since he will check behind flop way too often and giving away 4 cards to 2 random cards isn't fun.
This is one of things that ran through my mind but I've been playing online so much lately and have seen the 3-bet/C-bet move so much that I just assumed it would be too easy for him to not bet flop to try and take down the pot (where in which I had the ole CRAI ready to rock. It's the only time I felt like he would bet with napkins in the hand to steal it.
We need to know his image of you to think about how to play this hand best. We can milk his ego for a lot of value if we play him right.
As I said we played around two orbits and this was my second hand played. The first hand I played it was a five way hand where I flopped second pair (J8 on a 985 board) and I checked the turn-10 and called an 11 dollar bet into 15 on river from a what the guy said was a "busted straight draw." When I folded my hands I was leaning back and explaining the game to my friend (which I made sure was ok with everyone at the table before hand). Not sure what he thought of me so I just assumed he was testing me by what he was doing to everyone else at the table.
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I see where you are coming from with the second part of this as it makes the hand much easier to play assuming he calls the 4-bet weak. I also understand the point of showing the table bully you aren't gonna deal with his shit but I agree with Ninja Ace in choosing a different hand than QQ. Two reasons: When he sees I flatted with queens he will either be A. Scared to three bet me in fear that I will flat him again big or B. Think that I am too scared to 4-bet queens and therefore start opening up his 3-betting range even larger where in which I can 4-bet him lighter than usual later on in the session and pick up some pretty nice pots. As I said before he wasn't completely spewing and was slowing down to resistance so I wasn't making anymore money if I 4-bet. I could easily be wrong but that's just what I was seeing from him.
I disagree. QQ does well against everything except for KK and AA. You will stack off vs them on most flops anyway so trying to limit those losses shouldn't be a consideration in your plans. If this guy was cbet happy I can see some logic in flatting. He isn't though and plays his hands straight forward. So by calling you are just letting him free roll you. Fact you are considering donking into him on the flop should tell you that it isn't optimal to call. Also when someone flats my 3bets with QQ that doesn't scare me, that makes me want to 3 bet him harder because they are letting me have control and QQ is hard to get. While you say you can 4bet light, any thinking player will know that you have very few hands that can call a 5 bet shove if you don't 4bet QQ so getting 4 bet happy can lead to some spots like thishttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN0Klap8qgk Only he will probably show youAlso what happens when the flop comes Axx and Kxx. They are good to cbet, however he doesn't cbet often. So do you peel a flop cbet?When he checks through and sees a turn , is he pot controlling a weak TP type hand, Will you call a delayed cbet?So in summery. Advantages of flating over 4 bettingMakes your future calls of 3 bets oop seem stronger IF you can make it to showdown. Potentially encourages him to increase his 3beting range.Disadvantages:lets him see a free flop. Puts you in tough spots for limited gainMakes your future 4 bets seem really polarized IF you can make it to showdown. encourages him to increase his 3beting range. You are oop, there is no situation where this is fun unless you are running hot.
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Man, you're playing full-ring live, and you're probably not staying for very long either. Save the metagame for another time. Just 4-bet him and be done w/it. Being OOP really sucks.Since you've been at the table for two orbits, how can you comment confidently on villain's propensity to 3-bet OTB and to react when flat-called ? Don't make strong inferences based on such small sample sizes

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I just wrote out a huge rebuttal post but half way through I really didn't think there was a point since I don't think we will ever agree so I will just give results. I checked river, and he shoved. I snapped and he knocked when I tabled my queens. The black guy was furious (I guess cause he folded a ten) and demanded the guy show his hand so the dealer flipped the cards up and showed a 9-4 off suit. I asked the dealer, out of curiosity, what would have happened if he flipped up the hand and it had me beat and the player misread and the dealer said it wouldn't have mattered cause it was already mucked. The rest of the night the guy didn't 3-bet me once and slowed down his table bullying (which I still feel might have been a bad thing considering the fact that we all could have made more money off him if he didn't) and then eventually changed tables. Thanks for all the posts and discussion.

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I just wrote out a huge rebuttal post but half way through I really didn't think there was a point since I don't think we will ever agree so I will just give results. I checked river, and he shoved. I snapped and he knocked when I tabled my queens. The black guy was furious (I guess cause he folded a ten) and demanded the guy show his hand so the dealer flipped the cards up and showed a 9-4 off suit. I asked the dealer, out of curiosity, what would have happened if he flipped up the hand and it had me beat and the player misread and the dealer said it wouldn't have mattered cause it was already mucked. The rest of the night the guy didn't 3-bet me once and slowed down his table bullying (which I still feel might have been a bad thing considering the fact that we all could have made more money off him if he didn't) and then eventually changed tables. Thanks for all the posts and discussion.
As posted, I think that was the right play if he had habitually 3 bet and had a big ego. Reads matter SO much because ... and I don't know how to say this, but it's PEOPLE behind the villains making personal decisions. A guy like this sees a big pot and he needs to go get it. I don't know why the black guy was furious. He played his own hand, right? The player can table the hand and it's in play. If the dealer tables the hand, he is ALWAYS to touch the muck with it, which kills the hand and it's out of play. Even if the dealer turns over quads, the hand is dead.
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If the dealer tables the hand, he is ALWAYS to touch the muck with it, which kills the hand and it's out of play. Even if the dealer turns over quads, the hand is dead.
FWIW around here when a dealer tables a hand it plays
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The hand should be killed in the case when a third party asks to see it. If the hero asks to the see the hand, it should be live.

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  • 4 weeks later...

What's the point of posting in a strat forum if your mind is firmly made up about how to play it and you're not going to listen to any advice given?

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What's the point of posting in a strat forum if your mind is firmly made up about how to play it and you're not going to listen to any advice given?
"subtle" bragging tho.I'll contribute to help out:1/3 Live, literally my 2nd hand at the table.Me (HJ): $297Villain (UTG +2): $650 or soVillain raises to 12. Folds to me, I have 44. I call. Folds to BB who calls.Flop is 653 rainbow. BB checks (and looks super disinterested), Villain bets 21. Hero?Assume hero thinks for 30 seconds and calls and BB folds.Turn is a 10 completing the full rainbow. Villain thinks for a bit and checks. Hero?
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"subtle" bragging tho.I'll contribute to help out:1/3 Live, literally my 2nd hand at the table.Me (HJ): $297Villain (UTG +2): $650 or soVillain raises to 12. Folds to me, I have 44. I call. Folds to BB who calls.Flop is 653 rainbow. BB checks (and looks super disinterested), Villain bets 21. Hero?Assume hero thinks for 30 seconds and calls and BB folds.Turn is a 10 completing the full rainbow. Villain thinks for a bit and checks. Hero?
check back ... we're ahead and he's folding if we bet. If we check we could bink the river and he may bet again, or river could blank and we can call his bet.
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  • 2 weeks later...
"subtle" bragging tho.I'll contribute to help out:1/3 Live, literally my 2nd hand at the table.Me (HJ): $297Villain (UTG +2): $650 or soVillain raises to 12. Folds to me, I have 44. I call. Folds to BB who calls.Flop is 653 rainbow. BB checks (and looks super disinterested), Villain bets 21. Hero?Assume hero thinks for 30 seconds and calls and BB folds.Turn is a 10 completing the full rainbow. Villain thinks for a bit and checks. Hero?
If you bet what's your plan if he raises? Here is my reasoning, please pick it apart!If he raises you're most likely looking at AT (12 hands), an overpair to 10s (24 hands), 77 (6 hands) or 22 (6 hands). So youre drawing to 10 outs most of the time, maybe 17% equity. So if he raises you, calling is out. You either fold or reraise shove. How much fold equity do you have with the shove? For him to fold he has to put you on a set or a pair that beats him, along with your draw and bluff possibilities. With a set you could raise or flat the flop, but a bigger pair and you would raise the flop because of the draws he could have or the scare card that could kill your action. So he's only folding if he reads set which gets discounted because of the times you raise the flop with a set. So you have some fold equity with a reraise shove plus 17% draw equity. That sounds pretty neutral, or -EV.If you check behind youve got your draw equity and your 4s could hold up if you can showdown. Can you comfortably fold to a river bet after a blank? I could.Sounds like a check behind to me.
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