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Answer to Quizz Question #4


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Wow, I checked the polls and it was almost an even split! Well, maybe after the nuggets of information I have to share with you some of you may change your minds. First a story: Years ago Jack Strauss was in a tournament with 10 players remaining at two tables, with the tournament only paying five spots. Jack was one of the shorter stacks, but the players at his table were playing SOOO tight trying to squeak into the money that after moving all in repeatedly he took a huge chip lead at his table with no confrontations! Finally the SB went all in and Jack called him with KK and eliminated the player. Jack went on to win the tournament, but in a post game interview had this to say, "I think I played pretty well but I think I made one mistake. I shouldn't have called with those KK because I could have gone to the final table with even more chips than I did had I folded." Now this is an EXTREME example, but let's think about it for a moment and how it applies to the quizz question. There is no question really that with the K-7 of spades you are going to likely be more than a 2-1 underdog. In this case the pot would be laying you less than 2-1. Sure you can afford it, but can you afford the potential outcomes?A) You call and lose the pot unneccessarly doubling up your opponent and making him a threatB) Call and win, and you eliminate the player but also eliminate a great opportunity to strengthen your chip lead. From a stand point of risk versus reward,even if you WERE being laid over 2-1 in this situation it may still have been correct to fold if your opponents are playing tight desperately hoping to make the final table. When you are in the driver's seat in a tournament, there is little reason for you to take any risks. You simply take what's yours and let the other's have the little raise you put out there. Losing that pot by folding saw my stack go from 6 million to 5.85 million. By folding I also ensured that all of my opponents remained short stacks and had to jockey for position. Now I'm not so sure I'd go as far as Jack Strauss did and fold KK, but I think you have a better idea now why in a situation like this it's best to prolong the situation, while PROTECTING your massive chip lead. I hope this taught you all something, as it's a VERY valuable lesson in my opinion.

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That is very, very interesting... and a direction I hadn't even considered much. Besides thinking and reasoning about the logic Daniel has with that, it makes me think that we are all pretty lucky to have Daniel here sharing stuff with us and this great interaction and learning...And for the life of me, I can't remember which one I voted for! :?

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This concept of throwing away good hands as presented by David Sklansky in his tournament poker book whereby as a big stack with stealing rights seemed to be applicable just prior to two tables being consolidated into one table or similar situations. In these situations your stealing rights is worth more than busting someone. However this would primarily apply to smallish stacks.This situation is slightly different in that you are now at 7 players going to 6 and you have 6 million to each of the other stacks 1 million so they are not that short stacked as they still ahve around 10 playing rounds to go.However this principal of people playing tight to get to the next elimination is an important one as it allows you to take advantage of opponents fears which in essence is what no limit tournaments is about (even moreso than the cards you are actually holdng yourslef).However in this situation if you had Kings it would be a waste to throw them away as your stack is going to 7 million from 6 million (most likely)and I fail to see how your stealing of blind rights is worth 1 million in chips however tight the others are playing so I think Daniel is right in saying he would have a hard time throwing those Kings away. Maybe your opponent is holding Aces or an AK and gets lucky when you have the KK or maybe they even have an underpair and hit a set but that extra million is still worth something to you and the bottom line is that to win you need all the chips. I do not personally believe that you can afford to throw away the Kings in this spot with these chip counts.It is good though to look at all aspects of plays in these situations along with alternate plays as they do not always seem that obvious even if you eventually decide to discard those alternate plays. In other words try and imagine how all the options open to you will fan out if you made them and then pick the one you believe is most equitable for you. It may not always be the most immediate or glaringly obvious play to hit you.

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I just read the part in Sklansky's book that HD is referring to, and I was just going to post the same thing as the first paragraph of his post. I just want to say that I'm really enjoying these quizzes. I'm learning a lot, and learning that there's always more to know.

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I understand the portion about how you have to let the other players jockey for position and you want to keep your chip lead, and how you don't want to make a player a threat at the table....but I don't understand how you if you win, you're lowering the amount of chips you can have...especially in the Jack Strauss situation. I have no clue as to what he meant...

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This is one thing I tend to do in SNG's. If theres 4 people left I try to keep it @ 4 people as long as i possibly can because that's when everybody is tight. Instead of taking the short stack out on my left, I fold my small blind to him. I did this last night, and got my stack up to 7000 with everyone else a little under 1000 because everyone wanted to finish ITM. The blind were 200/400 so once the first perspn did go out, no one else had any chips to make a stand and it was easy pickins.

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Oddly enough...3 poker pros I know disagree with DN on this quiz. Maybe DN is after blinds and not stacks...who knows. I do know DN is my fav player...and any moron can see the odds are not worth the call, but I still say that winning or losing this hand is not the point. Playing it like DN wants only makes the overall win harder. But then again DN is prolly the best post flop player on the planet, so he can wait. I don't agree and never will, but that is why people have different styles.

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Oddly enough...3 poker pros I know disagree with DN on this quiz. .
Maybe that's why 90% of the poker pros are often broke. Only getting 1.75 for the money. And it's KNOWN that everyone is playing tight. Need over 2.5 to 1 to even consider calling. I want 3 to 1 before calling. No one is expecting Daniel to fold.The poll was at 54/54 when Daniel gave the answer to this quiz question. Eight have voted since then. 6/2 in favor of calling.Those of us following the action at the Bellagio thru the final 10 thread knew the answer. The 7th place finisher was busted the Daniel when Daniel held pocket tens. There was no report on any K :D 7 :) hand.
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Maybe you have shot/hustled pool before, so you might understand my point of view explained another way.Losing a game only ups the gamble from all the bettors. I've dumped 1K's of games to get the fat at the end of the set. This hand is no different, and I have explained TWICE why you should call...and now a third time because DN is simply wrong.....I do not care about "a" hands results in this context.Daniel is my poker god along with HL, but DN did NOT think beyond blinds when he could have gone after stacks.Maybe I should post some poll quizzes and see what happens :)But DN is still the man, even if I disagree over a hand;)

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I hope you don't take this personally Nitro but it is very dangerous to be so convinced about being completely right on a particualr play.Approaches like that are not conducive to improving your play.Very few things are definitive in poker and arguments can be made for many different approaches to a problem.The important thing is to look at all your options and weigh them up before deciding which route to take but invariably you can never be so completely adamant that a final choice is correct.Being decisive is important for good play but being single minded about being correct is not.In this particular problem general opinion is divided down the middle but I for one favour the fold quite strongly and for my own particular reasons given earlier which are related to my interpretation of the information provided and the position at hand.Would you care to explain your detailed reasoning why you believe you are so convinced of the call?

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This pot is giving 1.75 to 1.Players are playing tight.You're at least 2.5 to 1 against on any hand the SB is willing to play.There's no way going against pot odds can be justified.Especially since it isn't even close.Only use judgment on marginally close decisions.Go with the odds when it's overwhelming.Contrast this quiz with quiz 2.With 5 tables left, there is no reason to assume the SB is playing tight.The SB may even be gambling.Also A9o is a better hand heads-up than K7s.And the pot was giving 2.08 to 1.

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well i got the answer right but i never would have thought for that reason. I mean i kind of was on the right track, saying that people were still going to be intimidated by the chip leader if he didnt make the call, because they all want to get to the final table... but not quite the whole answer. For those of you that don't understand ( i read some of your posts) how busting someone would not strengthen his chip lead as much as folding, well heres the general concept. The other 6 players are still short stacks and are going to play very tight and conservative if you fold. Knowing that, the big stack can steal more chips from blinds and antes than he could by busting the player. And, if he busts the player all the other players will begin playing much more aggressive, and the big stack wouldnt be able to steal as many blinds. So by folding, the big stack keeps the style of play of the table in his favor. That might not have been a very good description but thats as best as i can do.

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However in this situation if you had Kings it would be a waste to throw them away as your stack is going to 7 million from 6 million (most likely)and I fail to see how your stealing of blind rights is worth 1 million in chips however tight the others are playing so I think Daniel is right in saying he would have a hard time throwing those Kings away. Maybe your opponent is holding Aces or an AK and gets lucky when you have the KK or maybe they even have an underpair and hit a set but that extra million is still worth something to you and the bottom line is that to win you need all the chips. I do not personally believe that you can afford to throw away the Kings in this spot with these chip counts.quote] I agree with you Harry but think you miscalculated the situation a little bit by saying it's worth a million to you. If you factor in the fact that you'd be in bad shape against AA, and only a little over a 2-1 one favorite against an Ace-anything, it really isn't worth a million in value to you at all. Not all that important, just thought I'd point that out.
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I've only gotten one of these right so far, but at the same time I got it wrong. The two red jacks, I said I would fold (Maybe even pre flop). Guess I'm superstitious like that... I hate jacks. But I knew the right answer would be to call and stated that... walking contradiction.I'm actually glad! I'm finding all the holes in my game and patching them up! I actually doubled my bankroll today. Thanks for showing me the way Danny boy! I think it would be great if you could make a quiz about getting a read on somebody due to their body language etc. I really want to strengthen that part of my game. I'm getting better, but still not up to par.

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However in this situation if you had Kings it would be a waste to throw them away as your stack is going to 7 million from 6 million (most likely)and I fail to see how your stealing of blind rights is worth 1 million in chips however tight the others are playing so I think Daniel is right in saying he would have a hard time throwing those Kings away. Maybe your opponent is holding Aces or an AK and gets lucky when you have the KK or maybe they even have an underpair and hit a set but that extra million is still worth something to you and the bottom line is that to win you need all the chips. I do not personally believe that you can afford to throw away the Kings in this spot with these chip counts.quote] I agree with you Harry but think you miscalculated the situation a little bit by saying it's worth a million to you. If you factor in the fact that you'd be in bad shape against AA' date=' and only a little over a 2-1 one favorite against an Ace-anything' date=' it really isn't worth a million in value to you at all. Not all that important, just thought I'd point that out.[/quote'']If the ace x aren't suited then it's actually closer to a 3-1 edge at 71.2% to 28.8%. Not all that important, just thought I'd point it out...Sorry Daniel I just had to... :D
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This was a nice quiz. Personally, i would call this under the condition that even if i lose i still was 2-1 greater in chips than to my closest competitor.Other than that, i would say daniel is correct on this one. A great poker player must know when to play and when to sit out and just observe, and i know this is one of the cases where you would just observe as it is a tournament play, and ALL u are risking is that you DONT GET THAT GUY'S $ if you sit out for one hand.

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I got this wrong b/c I didn't place as much value on stealing blinds and antes as Daniel did. But as much as I see the logic in Daniel's answer, I think this is very different on-line -- for whatever reason, my experience has been that people are much more prone to call and raise in that situation than in a live game.

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I said fold in the quiz and I still say fold after reading all of this analysis. HD, thanks for your insights as well.Why would you raise first in early with K7s anyway...this isn't a good hand if someone has a real one and needs to increase their chips. They are going to play it strong just like the SB did, no?If you have the huge stack, why not wait for better position to play the strong raise like late where even if they don't give you credit for as big a hand being in late position as opposed to middle/early, you still have the positional advantage being such a great post-flop player? Or are you more concerned with representing and being the strong table stack by raising early...I've gotten in nothing but trouble playing hands like K7s or K7o early or late...can never be sure you have top pair with top kicker on either side and why would you play this hand when the strength is only in drawing to a five card hand or an incredibly great flop?I like what TJ says when he says that many people put too much premium on the hand being suited..."If you wouldn't play 'em offsuit, why play 'em suited?"

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I actually got this right, I didnt even notice the answer was posted and I just answered in the other section :D but I was actually pretty accurate in my assessment. Now, I think folding KK is a little extreme. I would have no doubt called with KK. When you have a huge chip lead, it's much better to win hands by not showing down than by showing down and possibly getting outdrawn. Your interested in chipping away at their stacks, not hitting a homerun and eliminating them all. I like to chip away at them and let them knock each other out, so that when it comes to heads up, I'll still have a large stack to play with. Many people gamble to much with a large stack thinking they can afford to, but when you do this a large stack can turn into a short stack real quick.VirginiaGent:If you raise in late position, your hand will automatically be assumed to be weaker than if you raised in early position. The worst position to steal blinds with a junk hand is on the button, because most players know this and will play back at you.

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However in this situation if you had Kings it would be a waste to throw them away as your stack is going to 7 million from 6 million (most likely)and I fail to see how your stealing of blind rights is worth 1 million in chips however tight the others are playing so I think Daniel is right in saying he would have a hard time throwing those Kings away.  
Granted that throwing away kings is a bit extreme. But what is the highest pair you are willing to muck? What about AKo or AKs? Are you willing to toss those hands?TIA
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VirginiaGent:If you raise in late position, your hand will automatically be assumed to be weaker than if you raised in early position.  The worst position to steal blinds with a junk hand is on the button, because most players know this and will play back at you.
That's OK, you still have the positional advantage and shame on them if they do underestimate the strength of your hand just because you are in a late position.
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