John 14:7

[11 to 1 0]

Jesus did not say we had to proclaim Him personally to get to heaven. Some think that John 14:7b contradicts that (No one comes to the Father except through me.) Here is more of the passage - Jesus is at the last supper, Judas has just left and Jesus is telling the remaining disciples that He will be leaving them and He gives them a new commandment "...love one another. This is how all will know you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." To be someone's disciple is to practice what they preach, essentially. So, a Christian is someone who loves others, this is really all Jesus asks. But then, what of verse 7? (Note that I give my personal interpretation, but it is in line with much of mainstream Christian thought. Your mileage may vary.) Here it is in context:

John 14:1-7"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me. In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be. Where (I) am going you know the way." Thomas said to him, "Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?" Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me. If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him."

Generally, we take whatever Jesus says to His disciples as applying to us, to everyone. Jesus says that after His death, he will prepare a place for His disciples and come and take them to be where he is. In heaven, presumably. Who are His disciples? Those who love one another. Jesus says in His Father's house are many dwelling places - theologians take this to mean places for all people that are the followers of the Way - the Way of Jesus is what He showed us in life: love, reconciliation, mercy, forgiveness. No place in this passage says "You must proclaim the name Jesus." Jesus also was not speaking in English, as we all know and as He was in private with His disciples, likely speaking in Aramaic, the writer used classical Greek to set this down. The word erchomai can mean "come" and also "go." It refers to both arriving and returning. And the little word dia, translated "through" also means by, with, for, because and a few other things. An English translator made a choice among the meanings, what did Jesus mean? I wasn't there, but many believe, I agree, He really said something like, "No one is appearing in the presence of the Father unless with me, unless I take him." This is supported by Jesus saying I will come back for you...and take you with myself How does someone get to heaven who never heard of Jesus? Or whose information is so distorted they never really heard of Him, just some awful character that someone slapped His name on? Or someone who is a Buddhist, has heard of Jesus, but won't change his religion?By being recognizably a follower of God, the same as following Jesus' Way (I am the Way) by loving. Loving is not a feeling but the actions of caring for, having mercy on, compassion. And so, when that person passes from this world, Jesus has promised to come for him (or her) as His disciple and take them to live where He is is: with the Father in Heaven. Saint John's Gospel is oneof the most mystical and beautiful books ever written and very likely either written or conveyed to a writer by the actual Apostle, in great part, or by a first person witness of the events.

[semaj550 0]

Wow, this is fantastic stuff. Definately going to give me fuel to do some more study.

[crowTrobot 2]

Saint John's Gospel is oneof the most mystical and beautiful books ever written and very likely either written or conveyed to a writer by the actual Apostle, in great part, or by a first person witness of the events.

lol. secular sholars widely consider the gospel of john the LEAST likely gospel to be written by an eyewitness of jesus.

[11 to 1 0]

Wow, this is fantastic stuff. Definately going to give me fuel to do some more study.

It's fun, isn't it? (Yeah, pretty much a nerd, this is my fun.) But this site, Blue Letter Bible is really great for finding the Greek and Hebrew pretty easily if you haven't been there. When you put in a passage and it comes up, there are letters next to it, the C will take you to the Greek and then you can click each word to see Thayer's and Strong's entries. It's not deep scholarship, but it opens your eyes. Like, finding the two words they translate "life" in some passages.

[semaj550 0]

hmmm...if you're right I'm left with some tough questions.For one; if one never knows of Christ how is one to know the Way? Are we just to conclude that any way of living that is not loving necessarily results in denial of Heaven? What about someone who never had the benefit of the Good News and lived the only way they were raised to?

[BWToth 0]

hmmm...if you're right I'm left with some tough questions.For one; if one never knows of Christ how is one to know the Way? Are we just to conclude that any way of living that is not loving necessarily results in denial of Heaven? What about someone who never had the benefit of the Good News and lived the only way they were raised to?

Now you're using analytical thought. Good job.

[crowTrobot 2]

Now you're using analytical thought. Good job.

the next question is why would a hindu humanitarian deserve to get into heaven while an atheist humanitarian does not?

[BWToth 0]

That may be a bit too much to handle at this point, baby steps.

[semaj550 0]

the next question is why would a hindu humanitarian deserve to get into heaven while an atheist humanitarian does not?

Very good question.

[crowTrobot 2]

Very good question.

not really. i was being facetious. a good question would be: why does anyone think what does or doesn't get you into heaven is an issue worthy of intellectual discussion. it should be pretty obvious that personal interpretation is required to make any sense of the bible, since jesus was pretty vague and his (supposed) words do not make any specific sense on their own. like most philosophical issues there is no resolution independant of personal opinion - there is no specific truth to be found, other than the personal opinion you yourself necessarily have to inject for anything to make sense at all.

[Huffster 0]

hmmm...if you're right I'm left with some tough questions.For one; if one never knows of Christ how is one to know the Way? Are we just to conclude that any way of living that is not loving necessarily results in denial of Heaven? What about someone who never had the benefit of the Good News and lived the only way they were raised to?

Romans 1:18-23"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man."Genesis 1:27"27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."His...attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made. God made man. Therefore...Clearly God has made manifest in all his creation, including men, knowledge of Himself. What may be known of Him is already within us all.

For one; if one never knows of Christ how is one to know the Way?

Obviously, those who have never heard the gospel don't make this arguement; it is made either by those who have heard it and wish to manufacture an excuse to reject it or by Christians who fancy an interesting argument.I would answer your question as follows: That's interesting, but what should be of more pressing concern is the fact that you HAVE heard the gospel. What will become of you? And for those who are Christians, if such questions bother you, have you considered finding some folks who haven't heard the gospel and telling them?

[jmkiser 0]

I would answer your question as follows: That's interesting, but what should be of more pressing concern is the fact that you HAVE heard the gospel. What will become of you? And for those who are Christians, if such questions bother you, have you considered finding some folks who haven't heard the gospel and telling them?

OH no no no noyou're not getting off that easy. You can avoid the question however much you want, but we're looking for an answer here which is something you haven't done!When a Christian asks what happens to those who never get to hear of "the way", it is not an answer to simply say "check your own life and worry about yourself" and then go on to say "instead of asking these questions, you should be out telling people about the gospel!".Answer the question or don't!

[semaj550 0]

I would answer your question as follows: That's interesting, but what should be of more pressing concern is the fact that you HAVE heard the gospel. What will become of you? And for those who are Christians, if such questions bother you, have you considered finding some folks who haven't heard the gospel and telling them?

That answer clearly ignores what Christ specifically teaches.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these."- Mark 12:30-32

So we know that loving God and others is paramount.

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."- John 14:5-7

We also know that Christ is the Way.

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."- Matthew 28:18-20

Lastly, Christ tells us the importance of missionary work.To have heard the gospel and ignore these clear teachings would certainly be un-Christian.

[BWToth 0]

not really. i was being facetious. a good question would be: why does anyone think what does or doesn't get you into heaven is an issue worthy of intellectual discussion. it should be pretty obvious that personal interpretation is required to make any sense of the bible, since jesus was pretty vague and his (supposed) words do not make any specific sense on their own. like most philosophical issues there is no resolution independant of personal opinion - there is no specific truth to be found, other than the personal opinion you yourself necessarily have to inject for anything to make sense at all.

Well, see i think the problem that you tend to run into when dealing with a lot of the people is here is that you cannot look at it from their perspective, no offense. But you're trying to show the fallacies and incongruencies that exist with Christianity, Religion, the Bible themselves from an outside perspective. I think it could be beneficial to take a step back and show those same things from within them.Maybe, essentially this stance:Show how Chrstianity is illogical from the starting assumption that is true. Rather than:Show how Christianity is illogical from the starting assumption that is ISN'T true.Maybe. I feel like the times I've done that the responses are more receptive. But you may not necessarily care enough to to that which is fine by me.Also, isn't your previous question about the hindu humanitarian and the atheist humanitarian actually a very valid one that should be posed to a Christian?

[crowTrobot 2]

Well, see i think the problem that you tend to run into when dealing with a lot of the people is here is that you cannot look at it from their perspective, no offense. But you're trying to show the fallacies and incongruencies that exist with Christianity, Religion, the Bible themselves from an outside perspective. I think it could be beneficial to take a step back and show those same things from within them.

i was a christian for many years, so i'm well aware of christian perspectives. my posts are not for the benefit of the hardcore christians i'm replying to - that attempt would be an utter waste of time, since they necessarily have to justify any internal fallacy in their belief at any intellectual cost because their belief is typically hopelessly tied to their ego. when i post i'm typically "talking" to any fence-sitters, or those *without* starting assumptions that might happen to be reading. and on the good chance that none are, i'm doing it for mental exercise : )

Also, isn't your previous question about the hindu humanitarian and the atheist humanitarian actually a very valid one that should be posed to a Christian?

no. someone that differentiates the salvation of a person of any particular non-christian faith from a person without faith is by definition not a christian. christianity by definition is the belief that the christian god/jesus is the only "way" - that is one thing the bible is absolutely clear on. someone who thinks otherwise might as well rewrite the entire bible. 11/1 is just taking a few quotes from jesus and twisting them out of context of the bible as a whole to fit concepts of general morality that he thinks they should fit, and discarding the rest of the bible. he is not a christian - he is someone who takes the parts of various religious beliefs he thinks makes sense and tries to fit them all together.

[BWToth 0]

no. someone that differentiates the salvation of a person of any particular non-christian faith from a person without faith is by definition not a christian. christianity by definition is the belief that the christian god/jesus is the only "way" - that is one thing the bible is absolutely clear on. someone who thinks otherwise might as well rewrite the entire bible.

Yes but what about the Hindu Humanitarian that has never even heard of the Christian God? Isn't there something there up for debate (from the christian perpsective that is)

[Huffster 0]

OH no no no noyou're not getting off that easy. You can avoid the question however much you want, but we're looking for an answer here which is something you haven't done!When a Christian asks what happens to those who never get to hear of "the way", it is not an answer to simply say "check your own life and worry about yourself" and then go on to say "instead of asking these questions, you should be out telling people about the gospel!".Answer the question or don't!

Fair enough, I was off topic. The original question was, "Must you proclaim Jesus' name to get into heaven?" Thi is specifically answered in Romans 10:9-- "9 ... if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."As scripture supports scripture, refer then to an earlier passage in the subject book of John. Jesus has a conversation with a Jewish leader named Nicodemus:John 3:1-3'1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 'Jesus further explains this, including the famous verse 3:16. Then in John 3:17-18 says:"17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."The reason I previously answered as I did can be found in the bold section of 3:18. Salvation can be likened to the oxygen masks on an airplane. If they drop (the word is given to us), first don your own mask, then assist others. This is love. As Jesus commanded:Matthew 28:18-20'18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,... 20 [teach] them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.'BTW focus on Love is important, as Love is paramount: I Corinthians 13:13 "13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." But as this passage indicates, other things are commanded of us and cannot be ignored. A good source of these can be found in Matthew chapters 5, 6, & 7. The three chapters together form a single dialog referred to as the "Sermon on the Mount." Jesus begins his summation in Matt 7:24-- "24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock."

[11 to 1 0]

hmmm...if you're right I'm left with some tough questions.For one; if one never knows of Christ how is one to know the Way? Are we just to conclude that any way of living that is not loving necessarily results in denial of Heaven? What about someone who never had the benefit of the Good News and lived the only way they were raised to?

Jesus of Nazareth is not the One we presently call Jesus Christ - what Catholics call the Second Person of the Trinity - He is the Who existed before the Incarnation, during and after, just as we all do. So, how to know Christ without hearing His name?He is Truth, Love, Acceptance, Healing, He is the Light. If a person seeks that, then they find that, "seek and ye shall find." Jesus said he would send us the Advocate, the Spirit, no person here is alone or without the guidance and care of God through Christ. I don't know what happens with people who are taught to hate, but many rebel as they grow and do look for the better Way. What I know without doubt is that God makes Himself known to us all in many ways, it says so right in Scripture, this is from Romans 1:19-20:

For what can be known about God is evident to them, becuase God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood in what He has made.

[11 to 1 0]

the next question is why would a hindu humanitarian deserve to get into heaven while an atheist humanitarian does not?

Very good question.

Who said they didn't?

[11 to 1 0]

Romans 1:18-23.....I would answer your question as follows: That's interesting, but what should be of more pressing concern is the fact that you HAVE heard the gospel. What will become of you? And for those who are Christians, if such questions bother you, have you considered finding some folks who haven't heard the gospel and telling them?

Hah! I should've read ahead! The bolded part made me think of a great quote "Preach the Gospel - if absolutely necessary - use words."

[11 to 1 0]

no. someone that differentiates the salvation of a person of any particular non-christian faith from a person without faith is by definition not a christian. christianity by definition is the belief that the christian god/jesus is the only "way" - that is one thing the bible is absolutely clear on. someone who thinks otherwise might as well rewrite the entire bible.

First, this NOT the "definition of a Christian." I'm sure it's some fundamentalist definition, but they don't get to make the rules for the rest of the world or change the true definition. Let's go back, a Christian, when that word was first coined, was a Jew who believed the teachings of Jesus. After Saint Paul opened the Way to gentiles, it was anyone who believed and attempted to follow The Way. Not follow Jesus, but follow the path He laid out. This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Now, this is "theology 101" and not to be taken as the entire thinking of Christian theologians, but it is the teaching of the largest and oldest Christian Church on the planet.

a good question would be: why does anyone think what does or doesn't get you into heaven is an issue worthy of intellectual discussion. it should be pretty obvious that personal interpretation is required to make any sense of the bible, since jesus was pretty vague and his (supposed) words do not make any specific sense on their own. like most philosophical issues there is no resolution independant of personal opinion - there is no specific truth to be found, other than the personal opinion you yourself necessarily have to inject for anything to make sense at all.

Jesus wasn't at all vague. Feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned, don't lie, cheat or steal. When the rich young man asked what was necessary to get into heaven, Jesus gave the man what he asked for, list of dos and don'ts. But the man wasn't satisfied, he was already doing all of that. So, Jesus told him what to do if he wished to be perfect - not what Jesus wished, but what the young man wished: give up all that you own and follow Me. As to personal opinion, why wouldn't it be? Do you think everyone is exactly the same? Of course when you read the Scripture it will mean something different to you, many times, than to another. Or diferent to you when you read it a different time on a different day. This is because God is real and speaks to you, or anyone, when they search for Him. So, He speaks to you, directly, in the Scripture. Or in any other way He can find to get the message across. The Truth is the answer, your answer is your answer - the Truth is always Christ/God. It's about you and God, not everybody else and God, it always was.

[BWToth 0]

Catholocism isn't the oldest and largest christian church on the planet by the way.Where the disciples catholics? where followers of Jesus is the 1st and second centuries AD catholics?

[semaj550 0]

Catholocism isn't the oldest and largest christian church on the planet by the way.Where the disciples catholics? where followers of Jesus is the 1st and second centuries AD catholics?

Obviously you aren't familiar with apostolic succession. Through the laying on of hands the current bishops of the Catholic Church extend in an unbroken chain to the apostles of Jesus. Obviously early Christians didn't call themselves Catholics but Benedict XVI is a direct successor of Peter. There isn't even a close contest in which Christian church has the most members.

[BWToth 0]

Obviously you aren't familiar with apostolic succession. Through the laying on of hands the current bishops of the Catholic Church extend in an unbroken chain to the apostles of Jesus. Obviously early Christians didn't call themselves Catholics but Benedict XVI is a direct successor of Peter. There isn't even a close contest in which Christian church has the most members.

But that has been created, molded, and changed over time. How does one bishop laying his hands on another bishop and making proclamations make them more qualified to make judgments and decrees about what the bible says?This is a whole other debate but Catholocism is one of the most hypocritical of all christian religions. Did this laying of hands give them the authority to add and remove book from the bible, create traditions and rules that were not begun until much after the time of jesus, go on the crusades and kill millions of infidels, have the inquisition, touch little boys, etc.What is a modern day, non-leadership role, everyday catholic's justification for followign a religion that is repsonsible for something like the Crusades? I'm honestly curious.Finally if numbers had anything to do with, Christianity would long ago have been denounced.

[semaj550 0]

But that has been created, molded, and changed over time. How does one bishop laying his hands on another bishop and making proclamations make them more qualified to make judgments and decrees about what the bible says?This is a whole other debate but Catholocism is one of the most hypocritical of all christian religions. Did this laying of hands give them the authority to add and remove book from the bible, create traditions and rules that were not begun until much after the time of jesus, go on the crusades and kill millions of infidels, have the inquisition, touch little boys, etc.What is a modern day, non-leadership role, everyday catholic's justification for followign a religion that is repsonsible for something like the Crusades? I'm honestly curious.Finally if numbers had anything to do with, Christianity would long ago have been denounced.

How did I know this was coming? lol You made a false statement and I corrected it. That's all there was to my post.