Off Topic, Kinda.....

[FCP Bob 1,323]

I like Krugman. I'm not familiar with a lot of his work, but I just remember reading some of his stuff back in school. He's on the Daily Show every once in a while too.

 

I like him too, he puts up 2 or 3 blog posts every day at the New York Times. His economic analysis is usually very good.

 

He's a total partisan and is very in your face a lot of the time so Republicans hate him and he's used as a totem for them to direct their anger at so if you want to influence opinion it's usually best to try and use people other than him since he might be dismissed out of hand.

[digitalmonkey 929]

 

 

 

What freedoms am I losing? I hate that phrase. People use it a little too much. Give me specifics. What can I do today that I will not be able to do tomorrow now that the most obvious has now been confirmed. No disrespect and bit trying to be a dick but you can't believe everything Anon says. Half of them are still going through puberty

 

I didn't get any of that info from Anon.

 

I can only speculate what freedoms you'll lose, but the freedom to leave the country might be one :/

 

Freedom of speech is already being attacked.

 

Right to privacy. Gun possession. ____________.

 

They are storing emails, telephone calls, photos, etc. They have drones on US soils recording video of vehicles and people. They are using facial recognition software and eye scanners. They are trying to get a standard registry of everyone legally entitled to work in the US. If you are arrested for anything they can take your DNA. Everything is stored. Why is that?

 

The whole point of whistleblowers is to protect against a corrupt government. Without people like Snowden how would people ever find out what's going on? Why is the government so persistent in prosecuting whistleblowers?

 

 

Read this:

 

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/06/11/what-is-the-governments-agenda-paul-craig-roberts/

 

 

[FCP Bob 1,323]

The economics of healthcare is a really complicated topic.

 

One thing that people need to understand is that the free market doesn't always work and there are certain "markets" with health care being broadly one of them that a pure free market is going to be a failure.

 

Here's some light reading on the topic. This is an online course from a UK University aimed at both Economics students and lay people interested in the topic.

 

The Economics of Healthcare

 

These two posts are pretty good ones on the topic as well.

 

Health insurance market failures (and what can be done about them)

 

 

Health care market failures (and what can be done about them)

[Fenxis 99]

Is it wrong to believe that we could fix a whole lot of problems by outlawing the medical insurance industry entirely and letting the free market dictate the price of health care? If health care was reasonably affordable in the first place, there would be virtually no need for Medicare.

 

The big problem with assuming that the free market will solve issues in the states is fundamentally broken:

- one of the basic assumption of that model is that there is perfect information: consumers should be able to weigh cost versus doctor ability. This information is hidden from them.

- a second assumption is that free markets require both a huge pool of products/services to choose from and low barriers for entry into the market. Given the costs to setup hospitals and education, etc this cannot be.

Bottom line: the a huge chunk of the US economy is just an illusion, every industry has their own oligopolies controlled by very few firms.

[FCP Bob 1,323]

The big problem with assuming that the free market will solve issues in the states is fundamentally broken:

- one of the basic assumption of that model is that there is perfect information: consumers should be able to weigh cost versus doctor ability. This information is hidden from then.

- a second assumption is that free markets require both a huge pool of products/services to choose from and low barriers for entry into the market. Given the costs to setup hospitals and education, etc this cannot be.

Bottom line: the a huge chunk of the US economy is just an illusion, every industry has their own oligopolies controlled by very few firms.

 

It's not just markets in the US that have these issues.

 

People vastly underestimate the amount of market failure that there is and overestimate how effective the "free" market is at efficiently clearing a lot of markets.

[Zach6668 513]

free market is almost nothing more than a buzz word thrown around by the far right, these days

[iBeaver 409]

 

 

I didn't get any of that info from Anon.

 

I can only speculate what freedoms you'll lose, but the freedom to leave the country might be one :/

 

Freedom of speech is already being attacked.

 

Right to privacy. Gun possession. ____________.

 

They are storing emails, telephone calls, photos, etc. They have drones on US soils recording video of vehicles and people. They are using facial recognition software and eye scanners. They are trying to get a standard registry of everyone legally entitled to work in the US. If you are arrested for anything they can take your DNA. Everything is stored. Why is that?

 

The whole point of whistleblowers is to protect against a corrupt government. Without people like Snowden how would people ever find out what's going on? Why is the government so persistent in prosecuting whistleblowers?

 

 

Read this:

 

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/06/11/what-is-the-governments-agenda-paul-craig-roberts/

 

Yeah probably won't read that. Nothing personal.

 

Long term bet? $25 that 25 years from now people in the US will be able to leave the country as they do now.

 

Theyust suck at their job since the amount of illegal aliens even working in my neck of the woods is huge and has been since I joined the workforce some 26 yrs ago.

 

 

[iBeaver 409]

Sorry had to cut short.

 

I fully agree with your apathy statement.

 

 

I know that things to snowball into the craziness you describe I'm just not convinced it will get that far.

 

I also don't think Obama has the ability to be soley behind this because well, he's a pussy. He just doesn't have the balls to stop it/control it/etc

[digitalmonkey 929]

Unfortunately you're probably in the majority.

 

It's obviously your choice, but I find it ludicrous that you'll watch someone play a video game for half an hour but you won't read an article or two and educate yourself on what your government is doing and trying to do.

 

I realize it's easier and likely healthier for the mind to remain somewhat oblivious, or at least distracted, but if you won't make the effort for yourself then consider making it for your son. Unless something changes he is guaranteed to have fewer freedoms in 25 years than you have right now.

 

The USA is becoming a police state. Obama is a puppet. George Bush was a puppet. The next president will be a puppet.

 

The USG is stockpiling ammunition.

They are trying to disarm American citizens.

They have previously confiscated guns.

They have militarized the police.

They are watching, listening and tracking you.

They have drones flying around the country.

They are changing laws while the public remains oblivious.

They control mainstream media.

They are masters of propaganda.

 

Nothing I've written is untrue. Imagine how much we don't know.

 

I don't know if they can be stopped, but it'll only get harder to stop them the longer they are allowed to continue.

 

Terms such as left, right, republican and democrat are created only to divide. Divide and conquer is strategy 101.

 

Watch the video of Obama debating himself. As president he's doing the same things Bush was doing; the same things he criticized before he was president.

 

I'm sure I sound like one of those nut jobs holed up in a bunker in Montana, but that doesn't necessarily make me wrong.

 

They claim this is all for your safety; to prevent acts of terrorism. Name two acts of terrorism in the US since September 10, 2001.

 

9/11 and Boston? Is there anything else?

 

I've read quite a bit on the Boston Bombings. I believe it was staged.

 

Here's one link: http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/05/11/false-flag-theater-boston-bombing-involves-clearly-staged-carnage/

 

I'm not one to subscribe to a conspiracy theory and then look only for evidence to support it. I'm the type of person who questions things.

 

I don't believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe he was the only shooter. I don't believe there was another shooter on the grassy knoll or anywhere else for that matter. However, I don't think he just decided one day he was going to kill JFK. I think he was hired by someone to do what he did. Anyway...

 

I haven't read much about the conspiracy theories of 9/11 so I haven't really formed a definitive opinion on who was responsible. However, I do find it odd how fast they came out with the Patriot Act after that. I wanna say October 21, but that could be wrong...but I do know it was October 2001. That's fast, no? It's almost as if it were ready and waiting.

 

By the way, something about the Boston bombing I've been wondering...

 

It was reported that a man saw some blood outside in his backyard by his boat and that's how they discovered the accused bomber in the boat. The police had ordered everyone to stay in their home so what was a man doing out in his backyard with a "terrorist" running around?

 

Curiouser and curiouser.

 

Anyway, that's enough for now, besides there's two well-dressed men knocking on my door.

 

 

 

 

 

[Fenxis 99]

The USA is becoming a police state. Obama is a puppet. George Bush was a puppet. The next president will be a puppet.

 

/agreed.

 

These jokers are no more the 'most power man on earth' than a dead buck strapped to the hood of a pickup truck driving it..

[Fenxis 99]

I haven't read much about the conspiracy theories of 9/11 so I haven't really formed a definitive opinion on who was responsible. However, I do find it odd how fast they came out with the Patriot Act after that. I wanna say October 21, but that could be wrong...but I do know it was October 2001. That's fast, no? It's almost as if it were ready and waiting.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Patriot_Act

 

The first version of the Patriot Act was introduced into the House on October 2, 2001...

[Untilted 158]

If the balloon guy starts posting in the hockey forums because of this thread, I am going to blame some of the people in this room

[iBeaver 409]

Unfortunately you're probably in the majority.

 

It's obviously your choice, but I find it ludicrous that you'll watch someone play a video game for half an hour but you won't read an article or two and educate yourself on what your government is doing and trying to do.

 

I realize it's easier and likely healthier for the mind to remain somewhat oblivious, or at least distracted, but if you won't make the effort for yourself then consider making it for your son. Unless something changes he is guaranteed to have fewer freedoms in 25 years than you have right now.

 

The USA is becoming a police state. Obama is a puppet. George Bush was a puppet. The next president will be a puppet.

 

The USG is stockpiling ammunition.

They are trying to disarm American citizens.

They have previously confiscated guns.

They have militarized the police.

They are watching, listening and tracking you.

They have drones flying around the country.

They are changing laws while the public remains oblivious.

They control mainstream media.

They are masters of propaganda.

 

Nothing I've written is untrue. Imagine how much we don't know.

 

I don't know if they can be stopped, but it'll only get harder to stop them the longer they are allowed to continue.

 

Terms such as left, right, republican and democrat are created only to divide. Divide and conquer is strategy 101.

 

Watch the video of Obama debating himself. As president he's doing the same things Bush was doing; the same things he criticized before he was president.

 

I'm sure I sound like one of those nut jobs holed up in a bunker in Montana, but that doesn't necessarily make me wrong.

 

They claim this is all for your safety; to prevent acts of terrorism. Name two acts of terrorism in the US since September 10, 2001.

 

9/11 and Boston? Is there anything else?

 

I've read quite a bit on the Boston Bombings. I believe it was staged.

 

Here's one link: http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/05/11/false-flag-theater-boston-bombing-involves-clearly-staged-carnage/

 

I'm not one to subscribe to a conspiracy theory and then look only for evidence to support it. I'm the type of person who questions things.

 

I don't believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe he was the only shooter. I don't believe there was another shooter on the grassy knoll or anywhere else for that matter. However, I don't think he just decided one day he was going to kill JFK. I think he was hired by someone to do what he did. Anyway...

 

I haven't read much about the conspiracy theories of 9/11 so I haven't really formed a definitive opinion on who was responsible. However, I do find it odd how fast they came out with the Patriot Act after that. I wanna say October 21, but that could be wrong...but I do know it was October 2001. That's fast, no? It's almost as if it were ready and waiting.

 

By the way, something about the Boston bombing I've been wondering...

 

It was reported that a man saw some blood outside in his backyard by his boat and that's how they discovered the accused bomber in the boat. The police had ordered everyone to stay in their home so what was a man doing out in his backyard with a "terrorist" running around?

 

Curiouser and curiouser.

 

Anyway, that's enough for now, besides there's two well-dressed men knocking on my door.

 

Hehe

 

Ok on iPhone so just deal with my random points.

 

Listen, I thought I've made it well clear that I don't like this country. Some of the stuff, some, of the reasons are things you are eluding too. I think your a bit over the top On most of it but whatever, the sentiment is there.

 

Ummm, I won't read it because I don't have the ability not the patience to figure out which it the thousands of articles are bullshit and which are not. You can tell me it's true but I simply refuse to take your word for it. Again nothing personal but at this point I've stopped taking everything I read on the Internet as fact. I've seen first hand recently how a large story, locally, got manipulated by one of the parties and the media took something I know to be completely false as truth. Didn't help the one side has a poor or staff and basically let it happen but goes to my point that in the past I would have read an article on this event and just taken the story as true. I would have assumed incorrectly. So yeah I can probably find you articles that make your claims false. I aware of the issues in this country. Getting angry and knowing about it won't change anything. Yes that can be called apathy but also reality.

 

The staging of Boston an 9/11 conspiracy theories. Sorry don't buy it. Never will so don't bother trying. Your giving out government way too much credit to pull that shit off. Wife and I talked about that tonight a bit. This is about money and power. Not turning America into a concentration camp.

 

What about England. They have cameras on every street corner. Way more surveillance than us actually. People don't go running around screaming about loss of freedom there. I don't know. Just can't buy into the extremes.

 

Well Obama is Pres and while I agree he is not actually running the show, the buck stops there so he takes the hit. Just like Bush wasn't running the show but as Pres you take the heat for what your administration does. No issues there.

 

 

I dOnt quite follow the patriot act after 9/11 thing. I have no doubt that they had wanted to tap in long before 9/11 and as I've learned from West Wing lol sometimes the govt jumps on an event to manipulate the people to help pass laws that at any other time before would be hard to pass. I don't believe that is a conspiracy, I think that is how it works and has for a very long time.

 

 

But let's get back to the, I can't do jack about it.

 

Tell me, how do we stop it? How do I stop it? See I can't. As you said the next pres and thebibe after that are all puppets. So voting differently won't change anything. If all you say is indeed true? The minute I try and form some group a drone will shoot a missle at me. can't call anyone. Can't text anyone. Can't email anyone. So I guess I'm Screwed. Back to YouTube I guess

[iBeaver 409]

I guess what this guy did by leaking shit gets things more out in the open and makes the givt scramble. But I don't have anything to leak.

[FCP Bob 1,323]

I guess what this guy did by leaking shit gets things more out in the open and makes the givt scramble. But I don't have anything to leak.

 

Did you wrap your new computer in tin foil though ?

[digitalmonkey 929]

I don't disagree that this is all about power and money.

 

You don't believe the richest and most powerful people in the world would be able to find a few guys to hijack some planes?

 

What a coincidence that 9/11 comes along when they have this Patriot Act in their hands. What a coincidence that Newton happened giving them ammunition in their attempt to disarm American citizens. Isn't it possible that the US Gov has something to do with these events? You say they would never be able to pull these things off. They don't need to be perfect. Any mistakes they make will be noticed by some people, but those people have been labelled conspiracy theorists, nutjobs, whackos, extremists, tin-foil hat wearers. It's funny how every conspiracy theory is untrue. It's not as if the richest and most powerful people in the world would be able to use any of their power and money to get things done.

 

 

 

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

What a coincidence that Newton happened giving them ammunition in their attempt to disarm American citizens.

 

I was trying to stay out of this argument, cause I think its a little crazy to think your gonna figure out all the behind the scenes stuff from your bunker in Sudbury, or mine in Markham, or Steve's in suburbia, Michigan......but I really have to take issue with "disarming American citizens". Your giving the American citizenry, or any group of citizens, way too much credit. When an army takes over, and guess what, this happens all the time in other countries, no one gives a fck how armed the citizenry is, cause it never matters.

 

And if you think the American govt is taking arms away from their citizens, you clearly have never been to America. They are more armed today then they have ever been, and they will have more tomorrow, and even more the day after.

 

I think a lot goes on that we dont know about. I don't however believe that random internet sites are where you will find the truth, so thats why I dont try to read all thats out there. I think its great you like to educate yourself, but I cannot imagine how you could read everything thats out there, as if anyone has the time, and then figure out an intelligent way to cut through the BS and find the truth.

 

Your giving way too much credit to the US Govt, and way too much credit to conspiracy theorists.

 

I know, I know, this is where I'm told I have my head in the sand and I am incredibly naive. I fully appreciate that there are probably powerful men out there that control many of the things in my life, control the message by the media, control the worlds economies, and probably dictate many many things on Earth, like governments and their wars. That doesn't mean I will figure out all their ways by reading what some anonymous guy wrote on the internet.

 

Also, the Rothschild family runs it all.

[Fenxis 99]

When an army takes over, and guess what, this happens all the time in other countries, no one gives a fck how armed the citizenry is, cause it never matters.

 

Say what??

 

 

 

Wolverines man!

[Fenxis 99]

9/11 and Boston? Is there anything else?

 

"The US electronic spying chief has promised to give the entire US Senate a rare classified briefing later about dozens of terror plots he says were thwarted by secret surveillance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...canada-22884566

 

//edit: though some congressmen? thought it was hogwash and that that information could have been obtained by other means.

 

To ignore the possibility that the US invasion/occupation/pacification/nation building of Iraq/Afghanistan has incited Al-Queda to launch further attacks is pretty naive.

[Fenxis 99]

I think a lot goes on that we dont know about. I don't however believe that random internet sites are where you will find the truth, so thats why I dont try to read all thats out there. I think its great you like to educate yourself, but I cannot imagine how you could read everything thats out there, as if anyone has the time, and then figure out an intelligent way to cut through the BS and find the truth.

 

Your giving way too much credit to the US Govt, and way too much credit to conspiracy theorists.

 

That's what I hate about extremists on either side of issues -- they generally only listen to the media that matches their point-of-view. As such they become almost brain washed in that they reject new contrarian information (known scientific occurrence). Whereas you should try and listen to as many sources of information as possible. By seeing both sides you gain better understanding into the strengths and weaknesses of your own position, and possibly, that given a changing external circumstances the best course of action changes.

[Zach6668 513]

Yeah, that's why I watch Daily Show AND Colbert.

[FCP Bob 1,323]

good article that echoes some of my thoughts on Snowden and Greenwald

 

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/06/greenwald-sticks-with-his-story-in-spite-of-growing-questions/

[mrdannyg 274]

I got tired of liking all the posts in the last two pages. You are all really good at arguing your points. Good work everyone.

[Fenxis 99]

good article that echoes some of my thoughts on Snowden and Greenwald

 

http://thedailybante...wing-questions/

 

IMHO the main crux of his argument is a bit of a strawman argument

 

The NSA apparently doesn’t enjoy a free pass to directly grab up server data at will — instead, it merely downloads it from an FTP server (or similar) after it’s been placed there by the tech company that set it up for them.

 

If data is spooled to an FTP drop box for access then sounds like "direct access to servers". If he expects that the NSA is actually accessing the servers remember that these farms are often written in customized operating systems that are optimized for distributed networking/scalability and trying to snapshot an image for backup is an expensive operation. Also, given the volume of data, you'd want some sort of compression that spooling would provide. I don't think that information makes this report any less damning of the NSA but raises questions about the integrity of the big social firms (well not really, our data is being mined 15 ways already)...

[Fenxis 99]

However:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/42121_The_Guardian_quietly_walks_back_their_PRISM_overreach_without_correcting_previous_reporting

 

The Guardian revealed last week that seven technology companies - Google, Facebook, Skype, PalTalk, Microsoft, Apple and Yahoo - were involved in the Prism surveillance scheme run by the NSA.

The Guardian understands that the NSA approached those companies and asked them to enable

a “dropbox” system whereby legally requested data could be copied from their own server out to an NSA-owned system.

That has allowed the companies to deny that there is “direct or indirect” NSA access, to deny that there is a “back door” to their systems, and that they only comply with “legal” requests - while not explaining the scope of that access.

I think there's a lot of confusion here in terms of program scope... what is being collected from the telephone companies and what is being collected by Prism. Or it's the mother of all coverups.