Top Set On Draw Heavy Board

[silkyjonson 1]

2/4 PLO on bodog, hand histories are pretty much impossible to post so I will do my best.hero 900 2 off button KKxxvillain 400 on the button and is fairly tight have'nt really seen him be that aggressive with big drawsthis game is extremely loose preflop but guys tighten up on the flop.about 5 guys took a min raised pot.Kc Ts 7sI bet pot, and the button repops me and I cant remember the exact numbers but I know he had about 267 behind. So with such a draw heavy board I decided the button would be committed with any big drawing hand and obv set if I repop and it would be roughly a coin flip with a huge draw (a wrap and fd are easily posible hands on that board) and he was tight so I decided to take the turn and shovel a blank giving him improper odds to call etc. turn is off suit A which fills straightcheck checkriver off suit Jcheck checkOk I know that I played this hand pretty badly on 2 streets and I started thinking about this hand and realized where my flaw in reasoning was and the major mistake became very clear to me. I know many people advocate repopping preflop but this simply was'nt working in this game as it would still be 4 way, so lets ignore the pre flop action and concentrate on the flop and beyond. Can you figure out what the major mistake in my reasoning is and why? I know this will be pretty easy for some but for others this is a good practice in thinking through a hand.

[bdc30 0]

There really aren't a lot of so called "blank" turn cards here. Non spade 2-3-4-5 is about it. The only other good cards for your hand are KT7. There are 19 "good" cards for your hand (depending on what your "xx" is) and 26 bad ones. A spade may scare off a guy with TT. Meh. I just shovel it all in on the flop and hope I hold up.

[BudBundy 0]

I am almost always repotting flop. Of course sometimes they will have AsQsJx or AsJs98 etc and sometimes they will have a set or two pairs.You will very rarely see a blank turn on this board. Any card above 5 completes a sensible draw.Just get it in when you have the best hand and leave the thinking to him with his draw or middle set.As played ;I d play turn the same.I probably bet 70-80$ on river assuming pot is around 260$.If we check and he bets 70$ we are calling anyway so why don't we bet it ourself and get paid by two pairs. There is a good chance his nut flush draw turned two pairs by river.We are obviously bet folding.

[bdc30 0]

ZOMG -- I finally "got one right" by bundy-standards?? Things must be coming around.

[silkyjonson 1]

There really aren't a lot of so called "blank" turn cards here. Non spade 2-3-4-5 is about it. The only other good cards for your hand are KT7. There are 19 "good" cards for your hand (depending on what your "xx" is) and 26 bad ones. A spade may scare off a guy with TT. Meh. I just shovel it all in on the flop and hope I hold up.

You are right about the not that many good cards etc. but I think using this play is solid in the long run but mistake number one is not when out of position due to the fact that if a spade hits and I check I could get bluffed off the best hand by a good player with balls, so basically unless it is a blank I am losing equity to hands that I may actually be winning so that is a good reason to shovel. But now reverse the action and I am in position and the villain check raises me on the flop and I smooth call now, that mistake is'nt as great as we have position and are playing our hand like a draw and if villain bets pot on a scary turn we have the option of folding whereas if we shovel flop we are in a coin flip *much of the time. (this reversal helps show the extreme importance of position in PLO) Now what is the flaw?What If I have bottom set in position and this player check raises me what is the best play? Middle set?

[bdc30 0]

If I get c/r'd when in position on that flop with KK by a guy with half my stack size, I'm all in, every day, all day. Like bud said, let him make the decision to stack off with his draw (OR best case, he has one of the lower sets with no redraw and we're crushing him)If I had bottom set here, I likely fold if cr'd (I may not even bet out if in position). Middle set...that's tougher, but there are a ton of draws out, and I could already be drawing virtually dead. I probably fold that to a c/r too.

[BudBundy 0]

In position i am more likely to flat call a checkraise. But still we lose a lot of action by many turn cards.No matter which draw hits on turn , we will have no idea where we are.****lol bdc my standards arent the right standards most of the time.****Bottom set is a clear fold. Middle set is the tricky one.

[silkyjonson 1]

If I get c/r'd when in position on that flop with KK by a guy with half my stack size, I'm all in, every day, all day. Like bud said, let him make the decision to stack off with his draw (OR best case, he has one of the lower sets with no redraw and we're crushing him)If I had bottom set here, I likely fold if cr'd (I may not even bet out if in position). Middle set...that's tougher, but there are a ton of draws out, and I could already be drawing virtually dead. I probably fold that to a c/r too.

say you are both very deep and you have bottom set or middle set or top set and are check raised by this player how would you differ the play of those 3 hands?

[bdc30 0]

In position i am more likely to flat call a checkraise. But still we lose a lot of action by many turn cards.No matter which draw hits on turn , we will have no idea where we are.

That's the thing -- the same cards that will scare US on the turn, may scare HIM as well and kill our action. He's instashoving no matter what card comes off, and with >50% of the cards left in the deck completing some kind of drawing hand, that too could push us off the best hand. Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-in sir. lol

[bdc30 0]

Bottom set I insta-muck to a c/r on this kind of board. No matter how deep I am.Middle set I may flat call a c/r and see the turn if deep.Top set, I'm hitting the "pot" button until it won't let me press it anymore.

[BudBundy 0]

Well it kinda depends on the xx of middle set. Cus i am quite selective about TTxx.QJTT , KJTT , AJTT , JTT9 with suitedness. I am more likely to call.If i play TT72 in a 5 way pot then i pretty much deserve to get stacked by a better hand.

[silkyjonson 1]

Well it kinda depends on the xx of middle set. Cus i am quite selective about TTxx.QJTT , KJTT , AJTT , JTT9 with suitedness. I am more likely to call.If i play TT72 in a 5 way pot then i pretty much deserve to get stacked by a better hand.

In this case just assume no real redraws other than a gutterball in position on this board.

[BudBundy 0]

Against an opponent like that i probably hate it but fold my tens. We are a dog against many draws.

[silkyjonson 1]

Ok here is what I think. I was stabbing at a lot of pots in postion though so its not like players won't play back at me. This player was less likely to push a big draw and is more likely to have middle or bottom set so with top set a shovel is mandatory as if by some chance he has a big draw its a coin flip but if he has the set he is crushed. So his range includes both sets but also big draws although it is more skewed towards the set with this type of player and therefore shoveling is mandatory with all this equity and so many cards that could scare him on the turn. So by slowing down I let him off the hook and he could have won the hand with a big bet on the river with the four card broadway on board in position. Now with this board and bottom or middle set and if we had position we can use our position to win this pot. If I have middle or bottom set I will almost always call here if deep and with a read on my opponent because 1) If he is LAG I very well could have the best hand right now 2) If he is tight I don't need the best hand with this board and so many scary cards to come. We can re-evaluate the turn and if the player is tight and an obvious scare card comes (flush obv) we can move him off the hand with a bet on the turn or river or both, as most players dont like calling off here if they dont improve and the board is scary.We can always dump the hand on the turn if a blank comes and we dont feel right about the hand but by calling here with bottom or middle set we keep a dangerous play in our repetoire that we can use to bluff a player off the pot. For example if I have bottom set in this hand in position and the board runs out like it does I will almost always fire on the river and win this pot against a better set or sometimes even show down the winner. Many players in omaha will just shovel any time they have a set and though many times it is right these are some subtle differences that are evident in a PL game as opposed to a NL game which this play can be taken away. there are also many times when you can either A)save yourself money by not getting it in on the flop if you are beat on the turn when a player was going to commit anyways whichB)avoids a coinflip by making your opponent draw to worse odds when a blank hits the turn.C)allow yourself to win a pot that if you shoveled you would be drawing to 1 out or few outsD)disguises your play for future hands, so players wont just assume that if you dont shovel you have a draw and vice versa.

[bdc30 0]

A spade may scare off a guy with TT. Meh. I just shovel it all in on the flop and hope I hold up.

[silkyjonson 1]

niii hannn siiiiirrrr