Restealing - Can I Get Some Insight?

[jjgoldy5 0]

I have seen "restealing" mentioned a few times on this forum as a viable tournament stack building strategy, though I am not quite sure on the methodology behind this strategy.WHO WHAT WHEN WHY HOWWho? I'm guessing reraising LAGish players with less than premium hands in position when you have seen them make similar raises with trash? Or weak/tight players with big stacks who will only call your raise with the goods?What? hands will you consider making this move withWhere? What positions do you make this move from? It is generally a BSB (Button - SB - BB) Battle play? Or can you make the move against a raise from EP on a certain type of player? Why? Don't you have to have an incredible read to make a reraise with weaker holdings?When? After first break? (when it is worth making this sort of risky play)How? What sort of reraise is typical (proportionate to initial raise?)I appreciate any and all insight I get on this board. I feel like it is really transforming my tournament game.Thanks!

[Shizzmoney 0]

Restealing is when you re-raise with nothing because you feel your opponent has raised with a marginal value that that cannot stand a raise. It usually occurs during the bubble level-onward, and is most effective at that time and the most profitiable (because of all the dead money out there with blinds nad antes and such). It however is still a risky play, but it is one that can be a crucial weapon in your arsenal in builiding a stack towards the final table.It's the pre-flop version of the stone cold bluff, and it's a dangerous but very fun play to do. It's intoxicating when you know you are right, raise with any two cards, and get someone to fold.WHO?You really can, in theory, re-steal from almost anybody........ it's just the effectiveness of when and where (and what is in their hand) that you have to deduct the probability of. Re-stealing works most against loose, aggressive players who you notice raising a ton from late position, especially in the bubble level where they literally could have ANYTHING.You also can re-steal if you are a very tight player, or have been playing very tight, against weak-tight opposition who will fold hands like AQo to a re-raise. But you need to know you opponent very well to do this.There are 2 types of players you don't want to try re-stealing from on a regular basis: 1) Calling stations (they'll call with anything) and 2) Players with gamble in them (because they will call with their suited hand in hopes of hitting a huge flop).Your image is also important. Very Tight players are ther best at it because their image always suggests a big hand. Dan Harrington is (or was, since his book came out people fopund out what he was doing) the type of player who can get away with MURDER (like the 62o hand @ the 2004 ME Final Table vs Raymer and Arieh) because wheneevr he raises a big amount, people think Aces, Kings, Queens, or AKs. Super aggressive players like Ivey, DN, and Mizrachi are a good image too because they are intimidating, have no fear, and will re-raise with anything and put people to decisions for big amounts of cash. They also raise so much, you cannont simply put them on a hand, so if people play back at them with a hand like J7o, they flip over AA, and everyone is just on their heels.

What?

This is debateable. Some like to re-raise with solid values, like two face cards, any pair, or any A-x. Others, like Barry Greenstein, quite simply don't give a sh*it what they think you may hold. If they sense a steal, they'll re-raise with 27o if they feel they can to win that pot right then and there.I personally if I am re-stealing, like some type of hand that can hit a big flop and could also possibly trap someone if an Ace hits. Like if I feel an opponent if raising with a weak Ace on the button, I'll simply re-pop him with a hand like QJo. I'm representing that I might have him dominated, but even if I am called, I know I am still only a 3-2 dog, which isn't all that bad. Plus if I am called the flop gets me a draw, it's likely I'll have the best drawing hand at that point and fire again. Very few players have the gaul to come over the top with just A-high on a 1097 board.I'll also often re-raise with suited connectors like 67s, and all low to medium PP. If the player does call my re-raise, he'll often overplay his hand when I hit two pair, a set, or even an open ended straight flush draw. Plus sometimes, players will even BLUFF RE-RAISE that they have the Ace with an A67 board, and when they do, you can lower the boom on them.

Where?

Mostly from the SB or BB, because most raises with crap come from late position, because most players know that the player with position is the player with power (this is more helping in online tournaments because it is more straight forward, as supposed to live where a player might raise from anywhere because his image is more concrete and vivid).A re-raise from the SB or BB denotes strength to most players too, because they will say, "he must have a big hand because he is raising out of positon and wants to take control of the hand". In very rare cases, you can re-steal from an EP raiser. But you must know that he's capable of raising with crap UTG and is very loose. I'd also recommend re-steals from the button, to make everyone react to you.

Why?

Because aggression wins poker tournaments, and you take the lead in the betting (and you are also first to continuation bet bluff on the flop if called) by being aggressive. You can also do it to send a message, especially online. You want to let the guy in your button know that you can't be pushed around with just anything, and that he better have something when you do raise your blind (you can also spook him when you do just call, because then he might think you are REALLY strong, which leads for more bluffing later).

When?

Re-stealing is, in context, a countermove for those who are stealing during the bubble level of a tournament. People raise with anything because they know those on the bubble don't want to go broke. You saw pros like Juanda, Lederer, and Matusow during the WSOP ME taking advantage of tons of internet players just trying to make the money. Those who advanced in the tournament, like Dannenman (like in the Howard Lederer hand), where the ones who fought back.It's also happens later on before the final table, or when the money gets REALLY big, because hand values go down and blinds go up, so action has to be forced to win. There's a reason why Uncle Broomcorn never won a poker tournament.Re-stealing takes on the fact that those raising those who don't want to go broke, actually in fact themselves, don't want to go broke either.

How?

IMO, there are three ways to do it:1) The Move-in (Also known as the KillPhil Strategy): This is where you feel as if you have the best hand, or are a slight dog in a race, or maybe even feel a player has a hand that cannot call an all-in, and you just shove all your chips in the middle. This is the most riskiest of plays (because you risk all of your chips and could run into a monster) but also the most effective in terms of taking a stand (because you are risking most of THEIR chips). You want to make a move-in on mostly those who are very confident in outplaying people post flop, because moving in eliminates that option for them.The bigger the stack, the better for this play. If you have people covered, and someone raises your button, you could "re-steal" with a hand like 22 and just jam it all-in and even make a hand like 77 fold. But don't do this against player with gamble in them, because if they feel they are in a race, they WILL call you.This is also a move that is very effective versus a bunch of limpers in MTTs. Granted, they will also like to call you with shitt*y holdings, but you can eat lost of chips by just shoving it all-in there with A high or even a hand like K10o. Against many players, this is also known as the "squeeze play"The Move-in move is also the most shady. I posted a hand earlier about me raising a guy's BB from the SB with A 9 He re-aised and jammed all-in, and had me covered. I knew that he knew that I could be raising with any Ace here, so I put him on either a very low pair, or maybe he even had a hand like KcQc. The Move-in usually tells you, "I don't want to see a flop". And that's why I called (he had the KcQc). The Move-in gives the most information away.2) The Re-Pop of the Pot: This is when you just re-pop a bet of 3-4 times the BB with any two cards. This is a way to give the impression that your hand WANTS action, as supposed to preventing it. This can be much more scarier to a frisky amateur who doesn't want to play big pots without a big hand. Pros may call you however because they might feel like gambling (or feel they might actually have the best hand).3) The Call and Then Bluff on The Flop play: This is when you call a raise that you feel is weak and trying to steal in order to bluff no matter what comes out on the flop. The danger is that they might hit their flop, but if you call a raise and feel they have an Ace, and no Ace flops, go ahead and bet. You win more times than you will lose unless you are up against a tricky, frisky player who will re-pop you. You can also check-raise the flop too (a la Danneman v Lederer), because most players who raise pre-flop make a bet on the flop if checked to them. You can take advantage of this knowledge by re-raising and representing extreme strength.The more information you aquire at the table will help you in the long run win without the cards.Hope this helps

[jjgoldy5 0]

I think I'm in love.Seriously, that cleared up a lot of my questions. Thank you. I like the idea of calling/betting flop if there is no ace out of the blinds.I think the effectiveness in restealing lies in the psychological aspect.It's an extra level of thinking...What I'm trying to say, for example, is that if someone is stealing a lot and playing over aggressive from the blinds, you are thinking.. I need to resteal.Well when you do that, your villain likely isn't going to think "Oh man, I've been aggressive, and now he is raising out of the blinds, I'm going to re-re-steal because he doesn't have **** either"Next question - if you reraise from the blinds with something like say suited connectors and low pocket pairs (ducks?), and the villain calls, are you leading any flop here? Even if you totally whiff (maybe this is the time to represent an overpair?). What if you connect big time here? Check against overaggressive villains, or lead weak? Its definitely dependent on your opponent, but what is your typical betting line?

[blakheart 3]

I think I'm in love.Seriously, that cleared up a lot of my questions. Thank you. I like the idea of calling/betting flop if there is no ace out of the blinds.I think the effectiveness in restealing lies in the psychological aspect.It's an extra level of thinking...What I'm trying to say, for example, is that if someone is stealing a lot and playing over aggressive from the blinds, you are thinking.. I need to resteal.Well when you do that, your villain likely isn't going to think "Oh man, I've been aggressive, and now he is raising out of the blinds, I'm going to re-re-steal because he doesn't have **** either"Next question - if you reraise from the blinds with something like say suited connectors and low pocket pairs (ducks?), and the villain calls, are you leading any flop here? Even if you totally whiff (maybe this is the time to represent an overpair?). What if you connect big time here? Check against overaggressive villains, or lead weak? Its definitely dependent on your opponent, but what is your typical betting line?

great reply Shizz- truly well done.Let me add a couple of thoughts. In online tourneys this play is most effective in the late stages (maybe even after the bubble has burst) depending on the structure. When the M's are low for everyone, players start stealing often from late position. Your best targets are the habitual blind stealer. Do JJ's question, there is no automatics in poker. but If I attempt a resteal from the BB and the button just calls, i am very nervous. I will check to see of the flop connects to me in any way, or if it likely connects to him. Then based on stack sizes I will make my decision.Don't resteal a lot- it is just like the habitual blind stealer, eventually people will figure out what you are doing and it will cost you a lot.

[Smasharoo 0]

Wow, 900000 words to say "learn to trust your reads".good luck.

[throwemaway 0]

Example: I was playing a $22 180 the other day and this one guy was very loose agressive, especially pf..He was raising on the button pretty much every time around..Once I considered a resteal when I had ace 7, but I don't like to do this as much with Ace X because if he does have Ace King or Queen and calls, then I am in terrible terrible shape..Instead, I'd rather do it with some kind of connecting cards..this time I had 10 9 os...blinds were 200/400 and he popped it up to 1200, his standard 3x raise...I had about 7 or 8 K if I remember corretly and jammed it all in..I feel like I don't have enough room to re raise without being commited to the pot, so I gave mysefl max fold equity by just pushing...Also if he does in fact have AK or AQ, Im not in awful shape as I have live cards.. He folded and didn't eff w/ my BB nearly as much anymore

[blakheart 3]

villian has been stealing whenver in the button or the cutoff. My cards are not relevent, but the flop is.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)CO (t3910)Hero (t2920)SB (t3910)BB (t2175)UTG (t1130)UTG+1 (t780)MP1 (t983)MP2 (t6852)Preflop: Hero is Button with K, 8. 5 folds, CO raises to t300, Hero calls t300, 1 fold, BB folds.Flop: 8 10 3 CO bets t300, Hero raises to t900, CO folds.Final Pot: t1950

[throwemaway 0]

villian has been stealing whenver in the button or the cutoff. My cards are not relevent, but the flop is.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)CO (t3910)Hero (t2920)SB (t3910)BB (t2175)UTG (t1130)UTG+1 (t780)MP1 (t983)MP2 (t6852)Preflop: Hero is Button with K, 8. 5 folds, CO raises to t300, Hero calls t300, 1 fold, BB folds.Flop: 8 10 3 CO bets t300, Hero raises to t900, CO folds.Final Pot: t1950

I like the resteal from the button a lot, as you take away position from him..Nothing pisses me off more than when I raise from the CO and the button calls...(Except when I get c/r'ed..I want to punch infants everytime somoene check raises me)This is a play I am going to have to add to my arsenal, i like

[Shizzmoney 0]

My cards are not relevent, but the flop is.

Not a bad flop for your hand either (especially since he's been raising with crap).Well done good sir!

[blakheart 3]

Not a bad flop for your hand either (especially since he's been raising with crap).Well done good sir!

Yeah I liked that flop plenty, but really I called to steal anyway. Hitting 2nd pair was a nice bonus!!

[yourboygsarida 0]

i am a fan of the call raise and bluff flop play but i will even use it as more after limping calling the flop bet then raising on the turn. i think this is very effective but very much read based, as you can pick up more chips without having to risk as many as a reraise preflop. this is very read/feel based though and not as easy as some of the others

[mk 11]

Wow, 900000 words to say "learn to trust your reads".

lol

Re-stealing is a very effective tool in any good NL tournament player's bag of tricks. It's something you should do more of in deep stack tournaments then in tournaments where players have short stacks in comparison to the blinds however, because in those situations the original raiser is more likely to say f it and go all in with any sort of hand. Also, you need to have enough chips to absorb the times it doesn't work out.

[The Phoenix 0]

Zimmer made a play tonight in the Super Tuesday that Suited UP didn't like. Markysals agreed with Zimmer's play I just wanted some further thoughts on it.Blinds were 300/600, Button raised to 1800, Zimmer pushed in from BB with 10 4 offsuit, button think for a bit and calls with AQ off and it holds up. Zimmer was out. Zimmer was on a re-steal obviously and did it with 10 4 to hopefully have 2 live cards.Is it a concensus that re-stealing with trash (hopefully 2 live is the way to go. Personally I usually like to a small PP or suited connectors unless the guy has been all over my blinds. I'm not not questioning the play, just wondering if I should loosen my re-stealing standards. It looks like I may have to grow some balls and add it to my repertoire.

[throwemaway 0]

Zimmer made a play tonight in the Super Tuesday that Suited UP didn't like. Markysals agreed with Zimmer's play I just wanted some further thoughts on it.Blinds were 300/600, Button raised to 1800, Zimmer pushed in from BB with 10 4 offsuit, button think for a bit and calls with AQ off and it holds up. Zimmer was out. Zimmer was on a re-steal obviously and did it with 10 4 to hopefully have 2 live cards.Is it a concensus that re-stealing with trash (hopefully 2 live is the way to go. Personally I usually like to a small PP or suited connectors unless the guy has been all over my blinds. I'm not not questioning the play, just wondering if I should loosen my re-stealing standards. It looks like I may have to grow some balls and add it to my repertoire.

I think that hand described is totally dependant on the past of the two players...If button had been raising a lot in late pos. and Zimmer had been playing w/ him a lot, I don't hate the play...But more information on the situation would be needed to correctly answer the question (stack sizes, payouts, intentions, etc)

[The Phoenix 0]

quote name='zimmer4141' date='Tuesday, June 6th, 2006, 11:31 PM' post='1131515']Didn't pick up a hand for about 2 rounds, button raises to 1800, I push for 9k with T4o from SB, BB folds, Button thinks and calls with AQ. No luck for me, GG me.Gl everyone still in there.That's all the info other than it was outside the money, Zimmer finished 276th and the tourney paid top 120. He didn't mention how the button had been playing.I'm assuming you are from the school of though that you like to have a little something on your re-steals unless you have a great read or the guy has been open raising at will?

[throwemaway 0]

To do a resteal, I'm typically going to need to know the guy has been raising a lot in late position....The button and CO are just as likely to pick up a hand as the SB and BB, so if I don't have further evidence that hes on a steal attempt, I'm not gonna try to snap him off w/ 10 4 os...Now, that being said, if I have a decent hand, something like suited necters, then I'd be more willing to shove em in there, if my stack size relative to the blinds calls for it..I don't know, its a feel/read kind of play

[zimmer4141 0]

Personally, I don't like the idea of having minimum requirements for a resteal. A resteal is exactly that, stealing with nothing. Pushing with a small pair is being aggressive when you are likely in a coinflip. It is a play that should rarely be used in low buyin tournaments IMO, because too many people will be willing to gamble. In high buyin tournaments (like that one the other night) most players will be aggressive in position. The resteal is also much more common, and much more useful in these tournaments. My play was questionable because I didn't have a wealth of information on my opponent, and that's a risk I take. There simply is not enough time in online tournaments to get a concrete read on your opponent in most cases. There is one type of hand never to make a resteal with, and that is a weak A. Because most times when you are called, it will be by a stronger A, and you are a 3-1 dog. I do it often with complete trash, because almost everytime I have 2 live cards if I am called. It is one of my favorite plays, and it is a play you have to use and counter in the high buyin tournaments online.

[167-169 0]

Zimmer made a play tonight in the Super Tuesday that Suited UP didn't like. Markysals agreed with Zimmer's play I just wanted some further thoughts on it.Blinds were 300/600, Button raised to 1800, Zimmer pushed in from BB with 10 4 offsuit, button think for a bit and calls with AQ off and it holds up. Zimmer was out. Zimmer was on a re-steal obviously and did it with 10 4 to hopefully have 2 live cards.

Don't mind this play at all. It was just bad timing. You can not win tournaments without heart. Players waiting for hands will very rarely make a big score. Players with heart create their own opportunities for chances at a nice pay day.Timing is everything about re-steals. You can have the best read on a player but if they have the nuts one out of ten times, and you unfortunately run into the big hand the one time.

[tallytownFSU 0]

Timing is everything about re-steals. You can have the best read on a player but if they have the nuts one out of ten times, and you unfortunately run into the big hand the one time.

I couldn't agree more. And mk is right, its all about going with your reads. In the last tourney i played in, I c/r'ed the villian on the flop with an underpair to a 8 9 J board because I was 99% sure he had KQ or AK.So to restate. Trust your reads.

[Mashchit 0]

Personally, I don't like the idea of having minimum requirements for a resteal. A resteal is exactly that, stealing with nothing.

I would (probably naively) think that you'd want a hand that worked together in case you're called, so I'd rather have (say) 8-4 than 10-4. Is that irrelevant though because if you were to do that then the number of times that you are called and are in slightly better shape do not compensate for the number of restealing opportunities that you miss because your cards aren't good enough?Do you have any feel for how often your resteals pick up the pot uncontested?

[jjgoldy5 0]

tried this last night with 108s in the BB after the button raised me for the 4th consecutive time.he calls with Q8o?!Better luck next time I guess lolThanks for all the insight

[zimmer4141 0]

I would (probably naively) think that you'd want a hand that worked together in case you're called, so I'd rather have (say) 8-4 than 10-4. Is that irrelevant though because if you were to do that then the number of times that you are called and are in slightly better shape do not compensate for the number of restealing opportunities that you miss because your cards aren't good enough?Do you have any feel for how often your resteals pick up the pot uncontested?

I'd say that probably my resteals pick up the pot 2/3 to 3/4 of the time. It's tough to say because I only try it a few times per tournament. And obviously you would want a hand that works together, low suited connectors are the best hands to use to resteal, but any hand will work, because it isn't based on your hand.

[Shizzmoney 0]

Zimmer was on a re-steal obviously and did it with 10 4 to hopefully have 2 live cards.

This is also called, "Pulling a Juanda".

so I'd rather have (say) 8-4 than 10-4

Agreed. Although his cards are live, which can be good enough........I'd like my hand to be straightening and flushing because if I DO happen to run into a monster like AA, KK, QQ, etc, the best hand to crack those PPs are hands like 56s, 68s, etc.

[fckthis 0]

Now what about restrealing the resteal?

[zimmer4141 0]

Now what about restrealing the resteal?

I have just one question.How big are your testicles?