Double Feature (fr) (2/5)

[CobaltBlue 662]

I realize that action on these is a tad stunted, but they put me in tough positions...Bellagio 2/5 NLHE (9-handed)Cobalt $550CO $300SB $330Cobalt is UTG w/ Q Q . My image is probably TAG...assuming anyone's aware of that. CO seems to be a LAG middle-aged Yankees fan who said he flew in that day. SB is a youngish asian woman who seemed to play a little wild during her first visit to the table. She left for a while and "posted" this hand (not really clear how that worked). As I ponder the pre-flop re-raise, she starts talking somewhat nervously with stuff like: "I guess I pick bad time to come back to table." This didn't appear to be Hollywooding to me...it seemed genuine. CO's pre-flop call of the re-raise is hesitant...as his all-in on the flop.Pre-flop:Cobalt raises to $15, 4 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, SB re-raises to $75, 1 fold, Cobalt calls, CO callsFlop ($230): T 8 3 (3 players)SB checks, Cobalt bets $150, CO goes all-in for $225, SB calls, Cobalt re-raises to $255Standard or does anyone prefer something else?Several orbits and plenty of big pots later...Cobalt $540UTG+1 (Yankee Fan) $720MP2 (Asian Woman) $375BB $400Cobalt is Button w/ 7 6 . Same villains as before. BB is new to the table.Pre-flop:1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $15, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Cobalt calls, 1 fold, BB callsFlop ($62): A 9 2 (4 players)BB checks, UTG+1 bets $40, MP2 raises to $200, Cobalt goes all-in

[NoSup4U 0]

Hand 1:I'm never betting flop and folding. I play it the same. I might ship it in pf, but I don't play a lot of full ring, so maybe calling and shipping it on a safe flop is better. Is a 3bet in this game something other than AA/KK a lot of the time? I don't see anyone 3betting much other than AA/KK/QQ in 2/5NL games live.Hand 2:Standard. I fold there never.Mark

[tskillz187 0]

Hand 1:I'm never betting flop and folding. I play it the same. I might ship it in pf, but I don't play a lot of full ring, so maybe calling and shipping it on a safe flop is better. Is a 3bet in this game something other than AA/KK a lot of the time? I don't see anyone 3betting much other than AA/KK/QQ in 2/5NL games live.Hand 2:Standard. I fold there never.Mark

Yeah, I agree with all of this.

[Naismith 0]

I like to gas my chips preflop in the first one.Second one, I play the same.EDIT: Read guidelines. BAN.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Hand 1: I know the answer, Well played.Hand 2: I know the answer, Standard.

[Acid_Knight 2]

UTG+1 (Yankee Fan) $720

Why?

[CobaltBlue 662]

I like to gas my chips preflop in the first one.

Yes, but you're reckless.I think the problem with shipping it pre is that she's almost never calling with a worse hand aside from AK. The only benefit that I see is that we'll lock CO out of the pot...which isn't necessarily the best idea since I think he could easily have a very poor hand. If she's only got $150 behind or something, I'm definitely shipping, but with these medium to deep stacks, I decided to err on judging her reaction post-flop. Does anyone prefer a smaller or bigger bet on the flop or does it really matter? Also, is a check out of the question?Additionally, I'm a pro at folding down QQ PF live. Is this a spot for it?

[mtdesmoines 2]

I realize that action on these is a tad stunted, but they put me in tough positions...

Both are relatively standard. Without being there and reading the players myself, I do pretty much the same things.

[StPong 0]

Noobish question on hand 1: I understand putting the money in after the re-raise because of the price you're getting. But I'm wondering what hands the villain plays like this? He should know you can't fold with that price. NFD, AA, KK, QQ, maybe JJ? I don't see pocket pairs that would make a set playing pf this way...or is it the "LAG" and "wild" reads that make other hands plausible?

[Whiskey16 1]

Why are you allowed to re-raise all-in after your flop bet is raised from $150 to $225 all-in, and the SB calls. Isn't the action closed to you at that point since the all-in isn't a legal raise?As played, after the SB checks and flat calls, I think you have to push there, as AK seems more likely than anything. I don't see you getting away from the hand.On hand 2, I think you're always pushing and hoping no spade/no board pair, but I don't think there's a reason to get away from that hand.

[IAGTTAYM 0]

Ugh, that call from the sb after you bet the flop and CO shipped it, looks really strong, but mehhhhh, I dont think I can find a fold with $105 left. The second hand is standard, obv.

[7s7c 0]

Why are you allowed to re-raise all-in after your flop bet is raised from $150 to $225 all-in, and the SB calls. Isn't the action closed to you at that point since the all-in isn't a legal raise?

It is where I come from.

[Danny Dingleberry 0]

yeah.. depends if they are playing half bet or full bet rules...

[Danny Dingleberry 0]

maybe I would have reraised the queens pre-flop... depending on how i felt about the yankees fan... no one really likes to flat call with aces or kings so if that's what he's got he'll probably let you know right then and there...

[CobaltBlue 662]

maybe I would have reraised the queens pre-flop... depending on how i felt about the yankees fan... no one really likes to flat call with aces or kings so if that's what he's got he'll probably let you know right then and there...

If he happens to shove pre-flop and she folds, I'd call. However, if he shoves and she shoves, I think I could find a fold.I guess we've gotten about as much discussion out of the first one as we can. Turn Ac. River x. She flips KK. He flips Ah2h. He takes down monster pot. (I was pretty boggled that she'd check the flop there.)Knowing how this hand played out, does it affect our decision in the second one?

[CobaltBlue 662]

Okay, okay...I'll fess up...I probably posted these somewhat out of frustration, so let me just go ahead and share the story for those that hadn't heard...In the second hand, the chick called all-in. I asked if they allowed running it twice, and the dealer replied that they didn't do that. After that, I pleaded that she not have me overflushed...or don't pair the board. The turn paired the 9. The river was 5h. She hadn't said anything, so I reluctantly announced flush as I turned over my cards. She took another look at hers and then tossed them into the muck. I was pretty stunned and preparing for the pot to get shipped my direction. However, one of the players beside her asked to see the cards she mucked. The dealer flipped over 22...she had a full house. The floor was called over. They announced that cards speak (the two players next to her had seen them before they were mucked), so she got the pot shipped to her. I was actually okay with the ruling, though in retrospect, it was kind of a douchey thing for the other player to do.

[Andromeda 0]

Okay, okay...I'll fess up...I probably posted these somewhat out of frustration, so let me just go ahead and share the story for those that hadn't heard...In the second hand, the chick called all-in. I asked if they allowed running it twice, and the dealer replied that they didn't do that. After that, I pleaded that she not have me overflushed...or don't pair the board. The turn paired the 9. The river was 5h. She hadn't said anything, so I reluctantly announced flush as I turned over my cards. She took another look at hers and then tossed them into the muck. I was pretty stunned and preparing for the pot to get shipped my direction. However, one of the players beside her asked to see the cards she mucked. The dealer flipped over 22...she had a full house. The floor was called over. They announced that cards speak (the two players next to her had seen them before they were mucked), so she got the pot shipped to her. I was actually okay with the ruling, though in retrospect, it was kind of a douchey thing for the other player to do.

maybe it depends on the casino but you aren't required to show your cards in cash games...she chose to muck her hand, how can they take them out of the muck and say she won the pot? I mean, if I was bluffed off a hand and I had the nuts and mucked, I don't automatically win the pot anyways because a player uninvolved in the pot wanted to see the cards. Did she okay showing her cards from the muck or did the dealer just do it? If so, I think you could make a solid case here.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

maybe it depends on the casino but you aren't required to show your cards in cash games...she chose to muck her hand, how can they take them out of the muck and say she won the pot? I mean, if I was bluffed off a hand and I had the nuts and mucked, I don't automatically win the pot anyways because a player uninvolved in the pot wanted to see the cards. Did she okay showing her cards from the muck or did the dealer just do it? If so, I think you could make a solid case here.

I was under the impression that mucking the hand--whether or not it touches the actual muck--kills the hand, winner or not.

[Andromeda 0]

rule #9 from Robert's rules on poker (which I'm assuming are the norm since almost any site I've been on refers to them for rulings)9. You must declare that you are playing the board before you throw your cards away; otherwise you relinquish all claim to the pot. (The rule for tournament play is you must retain your hand and show it if asked, in order to win part of the pot.)I read this as - you muck your cards, you can't win the pot - regardless of if you had the best hand or not. granted the rule I picked doesn't necessarily answer the question at hand but it was the closest one I could find to fit the situation.

[NoBBiR 0]

rule #9 from Robert's rules on poker (which I'm assuming are the norm since almost any site I've been on refers to them for rulings)9. You must declare that you are playing the board before you throw your cards away; otherwise you relinquish all claim to the pot. (The rule for tournament play is you must retain your hand and show it if asked, in order to win part of the pot.)I read this as - you muck your cards, you can't win the pot - regardless of if you had the best hand or not. granted the rule I picked doesn't necessarily answer the question at hand but it was the closest one I could find to fit the situation.

The thing about mucking, like you said, as in getting bluffed is different than a called hand which this was. If you fold to a bet, turning your hand over doesn't matter. In this case, it was a called hand, so anyone can ask to see the losing hand, but I don't get the ruling that she wins after she has relinquished her cards. I probably would have got kicked out arguing with the floor because thats a terrible ruling.

[Andromeda 0]

I don't get the ruling that she wins after she has relinquished her cards. I probably would have got kicked out arguing with the floor because thats a terrible ruling.

You and me both...this is why I said (even though the difference is the bluff and a called hand as mentioned) I don't win the pot automatically if I muck the best hand because my inexperience of knowing what hand rankings are. It's not like she flipped them up and thought she lost...she totally mucked her cards, face down. Player ignorance should not skirt the rule, horrible call by the casino.The only time a player in a cash game has to actually show the cards is a winning hand on the showdown, correct? How can a player not involved in the hand even ask for the cards to be turned over? I'm still curious if the dealer automatically turned the cards or if the player OK'd this - the player always holds the right on whether or not to show the losing hand, not the dealer - correct?

[mtdesmoines 2]

Okay, okay...I'll fess up...I probably posted these somewhat out of frustration, so let me just go ahead and share the story for those that hadn't heard...In the second hand, the chick called all-in. I asked if they allowed running it twice, and the dealer replied that they didn't do that. After that, I pleaded that she not have me overflushed...or don't pair the board. The turn paired the 9. The river was 5h. She hadn't said anything, so I reluctantly announced flush as I turned over my cards. She took another look at hers and then tossed them into the muck. I was pretty stunned and preparing for the pot to get shipped my direction. However, one of the players beside her asked to see the cards she mucked. The dealer flipped over 22...she had a full house. The floor was called over. They announced that cards speak (the two players next to her had seen them before they were mucked), so she got the pot shipped to her. I was actually okay with the ruling, though in retrospect, it was kind of a douchey thing for the other player to do.

Here's my understanding. If she moves to muck them, and someone NOT INVOLVED IN THE POT asks to see them and the winners are turned over, she still loses the pot. If YOU ask to see them, you lose the pot.

[tskillz187 0]

Here's my understanding. If she moves to muck them, and someone NOT INVOLVED IN THE POT asks to see them and the winners are turned over, she still loses the pot. If YOU ask to see them, you lose the pot.

Yeah, that's how it works in every casino I've ever played at.

[Zach6668 513]

Even if the cards hadn't actually touched the muck, the dealer is supposed to tap them on the muck before he flips them over, thus killing the hand.This is a TERRIBLE ruling, and the pot should have been yours. Stupidity should not be rewarded.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Even if the cards hadn't actually touched the muck, the dealer is supposed to tap them on the muck before he flips them over, thus killing the hand.This is a TERRIBLE ruling, and the pot should have been yours. Stupidity should not be rewarded.

The rule in most caisnos is that anyone dealt into the hand can ask to see the cards.As far as tapping them on the muck, for some reason, although the dealer always does this, the floor people never seem to remember that it's more than a symbolic "killing of the hand" and that it actually means something.Cobalt wuz robbed!