Min Raised On Suited Board With An Overpair

[David_Nicoson 1]

I might have broken a holy rule of NLHE on this hand.Villain is LAG.Hero has $250 in UTG+1.Villain coversOther stacks ~$200.Preflop ($3)Villain limps UTG. Hero raises to $10 with T T . 3 folds. CO calls. 2 folds. BB calls. Villain calls.Flop ($40)3 4 5 :heart:BB checks. Villain checks. Hero bets $35. 2 folds. Villain raises to $70. Hero calls.Turn ($180)J Villain bets $40. Hero . . .Edit: I don't have a heart.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I might have broken a holy rule of NLHE on this hand.Villain is LAG.Hero has $250 in UTG+1.Villain coversOther stacks ~$200.Preflop ($3)Villain limps UTG. Hero raises to $10 with T T . 3 folds. CO calls. 2 folds. BB calls. Villain calls.Flop ($40)3 4 5 :heart:BB checks. Villain checks. Hero bets $35. 2 folds. Villain raises to $70. Hero calls.Turn ($180)J Villain bets $40. Hero . . .Edit: I don't have a heart.

Meh. I don't like it, but you got pretty deep into the hand, so I can see pushing or folding. Call means you're pushing any river.

[pokerinc 0]

bizarre turn bet from villian. Wow. Really weird. Look at his line. Limp UTG, call big raise, check min-raise. Then bet 1/4 the pot. Doesn't seem like a please call bet to me, more like a 'I'm not 100% on my hand, I don't think you are either, let's get out of this small, you agree?'Over-trickyitis for sure. Obv I'd have preferred do more on that flop as there's almost no turn card that makes the hand look better to me. Would have fold/shoved flop and felt a lot better. I shove and expect to see mid pair w/ one heart, or A 10 and up w/ one heart, which means that j may have helped his aj off get there on you.Also whats the holy rule you broke, I'm not smart enough to figure it out.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Obv I'd have preferred do more on that flop as there's almost no turn card that makes the hand look better to me. Would have fold/shoved flop and felt a lot better. I shove and expect to see mid pair w/ one heart, or A 10 and up w/ one heart, which means that j may have helped his aj off get there on you.Also whats the holy rule you broke, I'm not smart enough to figure it out.

You pretty much did figure it out.

[No_Neck 0]

what rule might you have broke? mid pocket pairs sucks, I push and get instacalled by a flopped flush.

[sierradave 0]

Meh. I don't like it, but you got pretty deep into the hand, so I can see pushing or folding. Call means you're pushing any river.

I don't follow that last point. Any river? If the 6h falls on the river, don't we check-fold? Or do you just mean that we should expect a LAG villain to be pushing any river, so we're calling $40 here fully expecting to call a river push? I agree that the call means villain is pushing the river, but are we really deciding that we're going to represent a hand on the river, whether a scare card falls or not?Not sure how I'd play the hand. Certainly agree I don't like being in this spot, and particularly don't like laying down to the opponent's huge range. Honestly, it probably is going to come down to my mental state from the course of the session. It shouldn't, and that's horrendous, exploitable strategy, but we need to let him bluff off his chips some portion of the time and need to fold another portion of the time. So I'd end up deciding how I feel, then convince myself whatever I choose is part of a "balanced" strategy. Kind of like Cap'n Crunch is part of a well balanced breakfast.

[Royal_Tour 0]

i think i let this go on the flop to the lame min raise, as lame as it is.at best you;re beating Ah,X. which, IMO is the only hand making this play that you currently beat.looks like a small flush or set here.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I agree that sometimes the gayest of bets are the ones that I find myself folding to. Once he min raises that flop, OOP, I just let my hand go. He could have a hand like AhJx where he's got 2 overs, a gutshot and a flush draw. Just as bad is a hand like Ax6h where he's got an OESD, overcard and flush draw. There are no turn cards you want to see yet he'll almost certainly be betting the turn. Just let this go on the lfop.

[tskillz187 0]

I agree with RT and Acid I like the strong flop bet, but it's there to try and tell you where you are in the hand, the stupid minraise tells you enough IMO, get out then and lose $45 on the hand.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I don't follow that last point. OK ..... I mean that we should expect a LAG villain to be pushing any river, so we're calling $40 here fully expecting to call a river push. Because a call means villain is pushing the river Because we really are deciding here at the turn that we're going to represent a hand on the river, whether a scare card falls or not.

Or we could simplify matters and push this turn ourselves. Either way, we mangled the hand by calling the flop raise.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Or we could simplify matters and push this turn ourselves. Either way, we mangled the hand by calling the flop raise.

Umm, why are we pushing anything in this hand?This is such an easy fold. If he holds one card, the A , then he has 1 over, a gutshot and a flush draw, which would give him 15 outs and make him a slight favorite over our hand. He could have even more outs than that and he could already have us beaten.

[shinzilla 0]

Umm, why are we pushing anything in this hand?This is such an easy fold. If he holds one card, the A , then he has 1 over, a gutshot and a flush draw, which would give him 15 outs and make him a slight favorite over our hand. He could have even more outs than that and he could already have us beaten.

Against the hand you described, we're actually the favorite on the turn.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Against the hand you described, we're actually the favorite on the turn.

Right, unless he had AJ with one heart. OR KJ, or QJ or whatever. The problem is that we know nothing about his hand really and are not in good shape against his range which features made hands that beat us as well as drawing combinations of flush draws, straight draws, pairs and overcards.Yeah, we're ahead of the naked A that I mentioned, but that was a decision based on the flop alone. Now there's an overcard and we could be drawing dead.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Umm, why are we pushing anything in this hand?

Either way, we mangled the hand by calling the flop raise.

[7s7c 0]

I agree that sometimes the gayest of bets are the ones that I find myself folding to. Once he min raises that flop, OOP, I just let my hand go. He could have a hand like AhJx where he's got 2 overs, a gutshot and a flush draw. Just as bad is a hand like Ax6h where he's got an OESD, overcard and flush draw. There are no turn cards you want to see yet he'll almost certainly be betting the turn. Just let this go on the lfop.

I conquer (concur)

[Lavitz 0]

Fold to min raise AINEC. You could realistically be drawing to two outs or runner runner full house and most likely are.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Hero pushes the turn. Villain does the math and calls with 4 6 . I feel like I got the money in pretty good here. I don't know what the min raise on the flop means for sure, but I'm pretty confident that the weak bet on the turn means he missed his draw. (The other choice is that he has the nuts and therefore doesn't worry about me drawing to it.) I feel like I'm too far ahead of his range in a pretty big pot to fold the flop.On the other hand, I would've ****ed the hand up if the turn was a heart.

[tskillz187 0]

You were in a best case scenario and were still up against 13 outs. I think you should consider the flop fold as being the best play.Edit: This doesn't include his heart "outs" on the turn either, but we can't guarantee a villain bet on those.

[mln_falcon 0]

wow, I think this hand was played badly (I think it's a fold on the flop), but he played much worse. Buddylist and valuebet this guy all day.

[tskillz187 0]

wow, I think this hand was played badly (I think it's a fold on the flop), but he played much worse. Buddylist and valuebet this guy all day.

Damn live poker not letting me buddylist anyone. Fortunately everyone is bad.

[shinzilla 0]

wow, I think this hand was played badly (I think it's a fold on the flop), but he played much worse. Buddylist and valuebet this guy all day.

lol you guys. If we're folding to minraises with the hands we have on flops like this, we are so, so exploitable.

[shinzilla 0]

Hero played this hand fine. Calling to see a safe turn/reevaluating the hand is not as bad as people are saying it is; IMO, calling>folding>raising. It's definitely not a "holy rule of NLHE". Straight out folding to a minraise without a read that this player only does this with monsters is terrible. If you're habitually folding to minraises on this type of flop, you're getting run over. Against players who get scared by the minraise, I will minraise my draws all day and choose to either fire on the turn if I think I can get a fold or take my free card. Look where reevaluating got us. Hero was able to read weakness in the villain's turn bet and made the correct play.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Hero played this hand fine. Calling to see a safe turn/reevaluating the hand is not as bad as people are saying it is; IMO, calling>folding>raising. It's definitely not a "holy rule of NLHE". Straight out folding to a minraise without a read that this player only does this with monsters is terrible. If you're habitually folding to minraises on this type of flop, you're getting run over. Against players who get scared by the minraise, I will minraise my draws all day and choose to either fire on the turn if I think I can get a fold or take my free card. Look where reevaluating got us. Hero was able to read weakness in the villain's turn bet and made the correct play.

In response to the bolded part: calling min raises on boards like this against a player where we have NO IDEA where we're at is far worse than folding the hand right now.The general consensus for the hand is that the hero has to fold because:1. He doesn't know anything about the villain. He doesn't know if his minraise is a monster or a draw or a probe raise.2. The board is SOOOO drawy that even the weakest of hands can have 12 or more outs against us3. We are not drawing to anything if we're behind4. There are 2 more streets of betting and almost every card taht isn't a black 8 or 9 or the non-heart T could be a bad card for us.Nobody said anything about habitually folding here and becoming exploitable. It's not like we're showing our hand or anything, we just slide it into the muck.Yeah, hooray for the hero calling and luckily having the guy make a very weak bet at the turn. The turn was still an overcard, adding one more thing to the list of hands that we couldn't beat. Also, like tskillz mentioned, we were in pretty much the BEST CASE scenario and he still had 12 outs to beat us.This is a fold on the flop every time unless you have a read on the villain that prompts you to call. The default is fold, not the other way around.