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Ps 180 Person $20 Sngs


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Don't try to force things to happen just because you're the chip leader and feel like you should be trying to bully the table.
This was the mistake I made in the tournament I've been posting. I went into the last few tables with the intention of trying out a new, laggy style of play. I gambled my way into a huge stack and didn't stop chopping away. I took some stupid risks and went overboard. I was lucky not to get snapped off by the others that could have hurt me while we were still in the small money.The idea of bullying the table is way overblown, IMO. You don't see people murdering tables like Stu Ungar did back in the 80s and 90s.
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This was the mistake I made in the tournament I've been posting. I went into the last few tables with the intention of trying out a new, laggy style of play. I gambled my way into a huge stack and didn't stop chopping away. I took some stupid risks and went overboard. I was lucky not to get snapped off by the others that could have hurt me while we were still in the small money.The idea of bullying the table is way overblown, IMO. You don't see people murdering tables like Stu Ungar did back in the 80s and 90s.
I was listening to a final table preview on the circuit (which, as Bizzle pointed out, is infinitely better with Joe and Gavin). They were talking about how they expected Greenstein to be raising lots of pots and bullying the table, so I spent some time thinking about this.I think maybe the problem is the difference in buyin. I just honestly don't see a lot of 'scared' play at this level. The 50 or whatever bucks between two spots on the payout ladder isn't enough to make people fold, whereas I can definitely see how a difference of 200k would scare people. I think its a lot harder to bully a ft without a serious differentiation between payouts. The other element is that it's pretty widely accepted that online you should bluff less and call more, given that people have a propensity to bluff you more and call you down more. Given that propensity to bluff and call, it seems to make sense that 'bullying' probably is a better strategy for live play than online. Finally, most of the stories I read about those bullying tables (like Stu Ungar as Strategy pointed out) were from the past. I think that players are in general more aggressive and have a better understanding of when they have to stand up to a bully then they did in previous decades.The other option is that maybe I just suck at being a bully, but honestly, I try to live by the theory that you should play the opposite of how others are - since most final tables I'm at are crazy loose-aggressive, I'm going to play tight assuming my chip stack allows it. I just don't think that these relatively small buyin online tournaments are the time when you should try to be the bully.
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Part of having a big stack and being bully is having fold equity. This is almost a joke in low buy-in tourneys online. Against smart people, re-raising them all when they hold a paltry KQo really puts them to the test. On these 180's that's an insta-call and a skeet in the pants. This is fantastic when you have an awesome hand (dominated, overpair, etc) but the fact is that sometimes to stay alive you have to make moves and can't fold for 221 hands til you get aces. Making moves means getting your opponents to fold. Good luck with that happening in a $22.

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Well the good news is that I cracked my cold streak by finishing 4th in a $22 180.The bad news is I busted when my AKs couldn't hold up to a re-raise all-in by the mighty K5d. Hits a 5 to make me choke, then a flush to make me vomit. Thanks for rubbing it in. I'm so pissed I can't even explain it. That tourney was mine, easily. $1k makes up for a week of bad beats quite nicely.Yah I know bad beat forum wah wah just let me ***** for a sec... there now I'm done.

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Thanks a ton for this guide guys. I tried playing a couple of these sngs when they first started but had no success. After reading your posts, I thouhgt I would give it another shot. First time I finished 17th (would have gone higher except I got knocked down severly when I tried too hard with AK against the chip leader who hit 4 runners to make a flush). Second time I finished 3rd. I will definitely be playing more of these now that I have a better idea of what it takes to finish deep. Thanks again.

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Just fyi, fwiw, etc...At 1st break: 70-ish remainAt 2nd break: 20-ish remainFinal table: 40 or so minutes after 2nd breakMy experiences, anybody get wildly different numbers?

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Just fyi, fwiw, etc...At 1st break: 70-ish remainAt 2nd break: 20-ish remainFinal table: 40 or so minutes after 2nd breakMy experiences, anybody get wildly different numbers?
Not wildly different-second break is typically mid 20s. FT can be anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour after the second break.
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Hey thanks for the strat guide it is great.I am in a cheapo 4 dollar 180 man sitting w/ 31k at the second break 21 one ppl left. Looks like I may be in a posistion to take it down. I put my money in horribly right at the beginning when i thought a guy was making a play and I was in the BB w/ A8 in a 6 way limped pot flop came A high with rags I bet out and the guy jammed. I called he had AJ i caught an 8 on the turn. I have definatley been running good and my table image is really TAG so I am able to steel effectively and I dont get much resistance when I show aggression.Rail if you wand tourny 2321855 not at the FT yet thoughsn: Alex916F

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I got first!!! thats my best finish in a field that large. wooohooo may be low stakes but i am happy. Thanks for the break down of the 180 mans therinn I thought the most helpful thing was knowing where my chip stack needed to be at certain points in the tourny. I put all my money in bad near the beginning of the tourny but after that it was smooth sailing. I really didnt think i was getting smacked in the face with the deckeither, just getting great action on my hands that were the best.previously i went out in these tournies because i tried an ill fated move such as a position call when i just didnt have the stack to make the call or check raising on a stone cold bluff because i thought i read a guy for weakness but was wrong.This tourny I made two moves beside the obligatory blind steel ever so often. The moves were pretty much continuation bets or a c/r to test the guy if he truly was strong.I showed down some monster hands when the field started narrowing quite a bit, when I took the chip lead with about 27 ppl to go. I found after that nobody wanted to mess with me. They would give me walks or really believe my continuation bets. well... yeaahhh I am excited about this win, i have been running so bad this past week but it ended at least for the night.

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Hey hombres, what's your policy on deals in these $22's? I used to think the idea was stupid since, well, it was only a $20 tourney. Except every time I'd won I entered heads-up with the chip lead. Well today I also had the chip lead, but only by $2k. So we chopped it evenly. My friend railing me thought this was kind of cheap, anti-climatic and all. But after 4 hours, even stacks (and relatively deep compared to blinds), taking the $900 and running seemed appealing. Thoughts? Only play it out when the stacks are uneven? When your opponent seems really donktastic?

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Hey hombres, what's your policy on deals in these $22's? I used to think the idea was stupid since, well, it was only a $20 tourney. Except every time I'd won I entered heads-up with the chip lead. Well today I also had the chip lead, but only by $2k. So we chopped it evenly. My friend railing me thought this was kind of cheap, anti-climatic and all. But after 4 hours, even stacks (and relatively deep compared to blinds), taking the $900 and running seemed appealing. Thoughts? Only play it out when the stacks are uneven? When your opponent seems really donktastic?
Completely up to you. If I think someone is a donk or I've got a big read on them (timing of bets), I'll usually play it out, or obv if I have a chip lead. If we're about even and the guy seems competent, I'm more then happy to chop.
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I have been using this thread along with HOH for the last month or so. I was wondering what you think about applying this strategy tournaments where the turnout is higher like a 500 person $5 MTT. Work just the same or make some adjustments? Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated

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Completely up to you. If I think someone is a donk or I've got a big read on them (timing of bets), I'll usually play it out, or obv if I have a chip lead. If we're about even and the guy seems competent, I'm more then happy to chop.
A bunch has been written on the topic, and I'm probably not being original here....If your opponent agrees to the deal, the money is probably significant to him and thus he is not playing at his best. If you get turned down, your opponent may take your offer as a sign of weakness and start playing with more confidence.The only reason you ever want to ask is if you are very sure your opponent will agree and you can't risk losing the difference in pay that you are playing for. I made deals in 180s back when I had zero bankroll, but I would not consider it now. I'm looking to maximize my chances of winning the tournament and offering deals isn't conducive to that.Back in February, someone I know was heads-up at the end of one of the big nightly Stars $162 MTTs. He had a small chip lead over his opponent and wanted to chop, but I stopped him before he could ask. The difference in pay between 1st and 2nd was $7,000, but his opponent was t soprano. The same t soprano that used to regularly play the $5,000 heads-up matches on Stars. Why would t soprano ever agree to a deal when he's in his comfort zone and has reason to believe that his opponent is not? IMO, there was almost a zero percent chance that t soprano would have accepted the deal, so why give him the edge?
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400/800utg minraises, utg+1 makes it 4800I push the rest of my chips with KK (some 15k)utg calls, utg+1 calls.utg: AQutg+1: JJxxxxJ15 left, winner takes a huge chiplead....dang, i've been knocked out from these 180's now 4 times in a row when i'm holding kings.. :club:

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15 left, winner takes a huge chiplead....
Doubtful that 45k would be a huge chiplead. 10k at most.And please do not disgrace this awesome thread with bad beat posts, it deserves better.
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Didn't see your post until today, Strategy. Thanks for your thoughts.

I have been using this thread along with HOH for the last month or so. I was wondering what you think about applying this strategy tournaments where the turnout is higher like a 500 person $5 MTT. Work just the same or make some adjustments? Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated
IMO, most of the information is the same. A larger MTT will have a more pronounced bubble effect though. Also, the larger the field the more skill you need to navigate it. So in theory, it's easier for a donk to luck their way to a FT in a 180 than in a 500+ MTT. Just something to keep in mind. Also, Bizzle's right. You might be surprised how quickly a "monster stack" at one stage is quickly very average within a short time span. I've seen people tell a 20k stack to just 'sit out' and blind into the top 5 without realizing that avg stack at the FT is $30k.
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I need help. The 2nd hour is killing me. I finish 50-20th an inordinate amount of time and it's driving me crazy. Stealing gets me in trouble all the time. But sitting tight and folding folding folding just gets me blinded out. Seems like usually I'm doing well one minute then blink my eyes and find my M at 4 or 5 out of nowhere. I'm just not sure where I'm going wrong here. I'm very confident with my early and late-stage (including FT) play but that mid part is just a mystery to me. I'm just not sure what keeps going wrong. As of late, some of it is just variance but I know my game here is weakest. Tips and tricks?

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I need help. The 2nd hour is killing me. I finish 50-20th an inordinate amount of time and it's driving me crazy. Stealing gets me in trouble all the time. But sitting tight and folding folding folding just gets me blinded out. Seems like usually I'm doing well one minute then blink my eyes and find my M at 4 or 5 out of nowhere. I'm just not sure where I'm going wrong here. I'm very confident with my early and late-stage (including FT) play but that mid part is just a mystery to me. I'm just not sure what keeps going wrong. As of late, some of it is just variance but I know my game here is weakest. Tips and tricks?
My first advice would be to reread bizzle's posts, and to focus on his advice about finding the right player to steal from. This is really really important towards the end of the second hour. If in doubt about a play, reread bizzle's paragraphs about it, and figure out what he'd do. Request your hand histories and look through the hands. Are there things you're noticing about people that you didn't notice during the tournament? If so you're probably going too much on autopilot - every hand can make or break your tournament, and you need to pay attention to them all, look up what hands people didn't show, etc. Its easy to get lazy because you've played a bunch of these.As you're looking through the hand histories, where do you see your tournament falling apart? Often the last hand is one where you're forced to make a suboptimal play because of the effects your past actions have had on your chip stack. Its easy to say, oh, I can't win a coinflip or I lost on a bad beat. The thing is that you got into that situation because of your actions at some point in the tournament. I know we'd all like to think we play perfectly, but you need to honestly evaluate your play, both when you lose and when you win. To elaborate on that last bit...if you want to play a sit tight and wait for hands strategy later on, you need to have built up your chip stack in the earlier levels, and if you haven't you're going to need to steal a bit more to compensate for that. Don't let a predetermined playing style for the second hour dictate your actions when there are better options available to you based upon your chipstack, M, other's chipstacks, etc.
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Hey therrinn, I really liked this Article. It helped me alot, I could say. I look'd you up on PokerStars yesterday, and I noticed you was in the 180 20$ SNG. It was fun watching you play ;D. Thanks for the help.

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I finally got around to getting my friend to help me with sorting the Stars SNG reports into a format that allows you to see statistics for each specific type of SNG.The Stars 22 $180s looks like this:232 tournaments Total paid: $5104 (buyin+rake) Total won: $10214.40Net gain: $5119.40ROI: 100.3%Avg. prize: $44.02Avg. place: 51Here are my places:1: 32: 43: 44: 15: 16: 18: 19: 510: 312: 313: 315: 416: 117: 219: 220: 221: 5If I hit the FT with like 16k or so, I am taking risks and trying to build up a stack quickly. Putting people to tough decisions in that stage of the tournament will either get you out in 9th or in the top 3 spots--I'm kinda proud, even though it is a very small sample size. I wish I had therrinn's work ethic.

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Here's part of my problem: I don't know how to play against the LAGs in the middle stages. Early on I just wait for my hands and capitalize on their loose play, which often means a double up. In the 2nd hour however you can't sit on your hands forever but I don't know how to steal from these people. Last tourney half my table was seeing between 30-50% of the flops, and remember this is the later stages. If they're all spread out, it's hard to attack the BB of the guy seeing 10% of the flops if I have to get past the button and SB both of whom will literally call with any two if the mood strikes. I'm very happy with my short stack play so right now I'm worried that sometimes I get too lazy in the 1st hour and don't accumulate enough chips knowing I can play short if need be. I'm honestly still a little baffled what's going on - may just be variance not sure. Hey for anyone still reading, I have one concrete tip for you: be generous with your re-raises. I've found that when I re-raise wanting a call (not a re-steal IOW) that I can often pop it higher than expected and still get a call (or two!). I think it's an ego thing -- dude sees AJ and wants to raise and goshdarnit he will not let this donk behind him try to run him over. People just get really committed to hands and want to follow a pre-determined course with them regardless of the action ahead or behind them (and their stack size).p.s. - good numbers Strategy, keep it up. What's your PS name, btw? Surely I've run into you by now but don't remember. I'm currently at 154 of these $22s but have slowed down considerably.

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Just wanted to add that these strategies seem to work in the $4.40s incredibly well. Not that I'm the best at implementing them, but so far, this is absolutely, and I do mean absolutely, sick.[EDITED after playing one tournament on 5-12]29 tournaments ($4.40 SnG)Total Entry Fees: $127.60Total Prizes: $715.12Net Winnings: $587.52RoI: 460.44%Average Prize: $20.26Average Place: 57Some of the average placings are due to the playing AK really hard in the first hour. I think I need to modify this a little bit for $4.40 play, but otherwise, I'm very pleased with the results.Places:1: 12: 14: 3 (Final Table Percentage: 24.1%)7: 19: 110: 117: 1 (ITM %: 31.0%)19: 122: 287: 3 (I don't get this stat at all, but think it's pretty amusing)I know, I know, small sample sizes and all, but this is an absolutely sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick strategy guide.

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On your guys advice I took a look at the 180 person SNGs on Stars over the weekend. All I can say is WOW. I played 2- 4.40 SNGs and one 20+2 and all I have to say was that the competition was really soft. I ended up bubbeling out of the 20 (finished 23rd) when the chip leader and I got all our chips into the pot pre flop me with kings and him with 6's and we both hit our sets on the flop. He unfortunatly rivered a 6. Bubbled out (finished 20th) in one of the 4's when my floped straight got beat by a runner runner flush. But the weekend was a success when I won the 4.40 I played yesterday afternoon. So needless to say I think I am going to be playing these MUCH more often, mabie exclusivley. Thanks for the heads up guys.Erik

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