Us Politics For Betting (Not Talking About Politics)

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

The gun debate is a lot tougher one then it would seem..I am all for banning them, but is that going to change the problem overnight? I m not sure...

 

Ya, this is pretty much what I think.

I think thats because there are already so many guns out there, that its actually almost too late to do anything about it.

Just seems like a 'no brainer' as you said, so why not at least try it. Especially when it comes to the automatic stuff that is really just all about mass killings.

 

Also, I would argue that "Even if you outlaw it, some can get it illegally if they really want it" is not a strong argument in my view. I think that kind of slight barrier keeps guns out of a lot of hands, and reduces the amount of guns out there amongst people who might have it taken from them, or stolen.

 

I feel like there's a bigger picture with this stuff than just guns, but I'm just not really seeing it maybe.

I used to think that so much of this has to do with a person's desire to be famous/a celebrity, while taking out their frustrations on those who they believe wronged them. Whether thats woven around the context of mental health, or not, I dont know. Maybe thats still the most logical explanation. ???

[Zach6668 513]

I thought I had seen a thing saying in some states (obviously not blue California) you could get it same day. Either way, it’s not hard to get legally.

 

And “overnight” change is not the goal here. I mean, it would be nice, but we should be making changes that get us to the desired outcome as quick as possible. It’s just not likely overnight. Don’t let perfect get in the way of progress.

[serge 904]

Ya, this is pretty much what I think.

I think thats because there are already so many guns out there, that its actually almost too late to do anything about it.

Just seems like a 'no brainer' as you said, so why not at least try it. Especially when it comes to the automatic stuff that is really just all about mass killings.

 

Also, I would argue that "Even if you outlaw it, some can get it illegally if they really want it" is not a strong argument in my view. I think that kind of slight barrier keeps guns out of a lot of hands, and reduces the amount of guns out there amongst people who might have it taken from them, or stolen.

 

I feel like there's a bigger picture with this stuff than just guns, but I'm just not really seeing it maybe.

I used to think that so much of this has to do with a person's desire to be famous/a celebrity, while taking out their frustrations on those who they believe wronged them. Whether thats woven around the context of mental health, or not, I dont know. Maybe thats still the most logical explanation. ???

 

You make amazing points that I have been thinking about for a long time..What is the issue? Is it guns? Yes obviously thats a part of it...However there is something else that has escalated these killings in recent years...Is it mental illness? Has that gone up , I dont know..But there is something to be said about the Kardashian generation...Social media/Celebrity..That has a lot to do with it..

[Dubey 1,035]

It would be a massive undertaking and require a complete shift in the mindset of a large number of citizens, but that is not a good excuse in and of itself to do nothing.

 

The argument that the second amendment was written so that citizens could protect themselves against the government is no longer relevant. Unfortunately, when the government gained the ability to drop a bomb with the press of a button, the ability of the citizens to revolt against the government in some imaginary scenario became impossible and no longer feasible.

 

The following is never going to happen because of the bullshit political pressures and the completely BS ingrained belief that the American citizen has some divine right to own a weapon, but here is how I would "fix" the gun problem in the USA.

 

-Gun laws need to be federal. I don't care how hard it is to legally obtain a gun in California, or whatever state you live in. There's no border crossing to get from Texas to California, so individual state laws are mostly irrelevant.

 

-Ban all assault weapons. Guns must be turned in within 30 days to the local police department. massive fines/Jail time for any weapons found in possession of a citizen. People are just going to refuse to turn them in? Possible, but it will reduce the number of guns in existence, and when it comes down to it, most people actually aspire to be law abiding citizens, and aren't going to keep an AR-15 in the gun locker if they know it could eventually lad them in jail. You can have some sort of buyback program, so people are financially compensated for their guns within reason.

 

-Ban all automatic and semi-automatic rifles. Same rules as above

 

-Have different "classes" of gun licenses, that expire every 1 or 2 years. In order to obtain a gun license, you must have a criminal record test, a mental health assessment test, take a gun safety course (the first time around), and pass a written test. In order to renew every year or 2, you must go through the whole process again, minus the gun safety course. If you don't have a license, you aren't legally allowed to keep a gun in your home. Same rules as above with the assault rifles. Comply or turn the guns in.

 

-In order to buy a gun, you must have a valid gun license. 1 month waiting period on all gun purchases. Must complete an application stating why you need the gun. Number of guns currently owned by the person is taken into consideration on the application. Stockpiling weapons will not be allowed. Possibly a maximum number of guns per household (2 or 3)

 

-All guns must be registered to an individual. If a gun is found in the possession of somebody other than the registered gun owner, massive fines/Jail time for both parties (the gun owner and the person who had the gun). make people completely responsible for their own weapons.

 

-Heavily tax ammunition. In order to buy ammo, you must complete an application process that outlines why you need the amount of ammo you are purchasing. 1 month waiting period on all ammo purchases.

 

-No concealed carry allowed. Guns must be kept in a secure location in your house. No walking around with a gun in your pocket or your glove box. Massive fines/Jail time for non compliance.

 

 

This would not fix the gun problem, but it would absolutely improve the gun problem, and reduce the number of mass shootings that occur.

[Dubey 1,035]

 

 

The gun debate is a lot tougher one then it would seem..I am all for banning them, but is that going to change the problem overnight? I m not sure...

 

Well, of course not. There is no magical solution that will fix this problem overnight, and this is part of the justification used by the politicians (who are heavily funded by the NRA) to continue to do nothing.

[serge 904]

Well, of course not. There is no magical solution that will fix this problem overnight, and this is part of the justification used by the politicians (who are heavily funded by the NRA) to continue to do nothing.

 

Lot of the points and proposals you make are actually laws in most states..

 

The point that laws should be federal is a good one IMO as well...For example Chicago has one of the highest murder rates in the country and also the toughest gun laws.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Great points Dubey. I'm not enough of an expert to really comment, but those all appear to be fairly straightforward and effective. Making it Federal is a great one.

 

 

I'm always amazed at something....how much money is there in guns? Is it really that much that there exists such a so called powerful lobby like the NRA?

The industry that I know that has one of the most strongest lobbying history is the Drug companies. But this makes sense to me, because their worldwide revenues are in the billions and billions, and I can see how they can easily justify spending millions and maybe billions on lobbying, since drugs are all about laws and regulations and price fixing.

I don't see that being the case with guns/NRA, so where is all this money coming from? Remember, this is consumer purchasing, not military, so where is the revenue generated? Are people buying thousands and thousands of dollars every year in guns, like they spend with pharma? I doubt it, would not even be feasible.

 

I've always found guns to be a side issue, meant to distract from the real issues at hand. Like gay marriage, and family values and all that stuff, its meant more as a way to get people out to support you, when you can't sell them on your more important agendas, or sometimes, hidden agendas.

[Zach6668 513]

 

 

Lot of the points and proposals you make are actually laws in most states..

 

The point that laws should be federal is a good one IMO as well...For example Chicago has one of the highest murder rates in the country and also the toughest gun laws.

 

And almost all the guns come from Indiana or something. (Citation needed, but I saw this somewhere)

[serge 904]

The issue in this country seems to be currently everything has to be black or white(not racially but philosophically)...It is assumed that if you are against liberal policies fiscally like the minimum wage being raised etc, you are automatically pro gun..

 

Just because someone didnt vote for the democratic party, it implies he is a racist...While these things are little over simplistic, there is a lot of truth to them. I see them in Canada as well, however they are nowhere near how it is in the United States. It might be because Canada is still a lot younger country, or hasnt had the racial and political tensions that is prevalent here...Not sure...

 

One of my best friends in Fresno is from Wisconsin. He has been here for 18 years..Our boys are hockey buddies and teammates...He is the nicest , gentlest, most generous man you will ever meet. I would trust him with my life as my families life.

 

However he has two giant safes full of guns. Tons of guns, hunting guns, rifles you name it he has it...He is an avid hunter, his house is full of animals that he has killed and had hung...Ive been to his house upwards of 50 times with my family. My sons have NEVER seen a gun. I have seen his guns on one occasion, when he opened the safe, when the kids werent there...He is well off financially, works hard and is one of the safest guys i have ever met..

 

Now the argument is does he need all those guns? Most of you and probably me might say NO, he doesnt. Is he going to go to a night club and shoot up 50 people, absolutely not.

 

Most people would argue he shouldnt be killing animals, well thats your opinion...Its his sport, he does everything legally and licenses for everything that he does..There are people here that are Vegans, I dont agree with that lifestyle but good for them if they choose to lead it.

 

I asked him the other day, are you a member of the NRA, he said no he isnt.

 

My friend is an example of a responsible gun owner..I m sure he is one of millions of those in this country.. The issue is a tough one..I am all for gun control, I am all for ending these senseless killings.

 

Drugs are killing more of our innocent youth, alcohol which is legal kills too many people every year...And the one that no one talks about is obesity and the countries obsession with fast food...

 

I used to think it was a stupid argument..Ban guns, its easy ..Stop the killings...No its not that easy..

[Zach6668 513]

The obesity thing gets talked about all the time. At least in my circles. Improving health outcomes is a huge positive aspect of better city planning and getting people out of their cars..

 

I was just in suburban Florida... I felt *skinny*. Scary.

[Zach6668 513]

I'm pretty sure drug and alcohol use is going down among young people as well, which is a good thing.

[Dubey 1,035]

The issue in this country seems to be currently everything has to be black or white(not racially but philosophically)...It is assumed that if you are against liberal policies fiscally like the minimum wage being raised etc, you are automatically pro gun..

 

Just because someone didnt vote for the democratic party, it implies he is a racist...While these things are little over simplistic, there is a lot of truth to them. I see them in Canada as well, however they are nowhere near how it is in the United States. It might be because Canada is still a lot younger country, or hasnt had the racial and political tensions that is prevalent here...Not sure...

 

One of my best friends in Fresno is from Wisconsin. He has been here for 18 years..Our boys are hockey buddies and teammates...He is the nicest , gentlest, most generous man you will ever meet. I would trust him with my life as my families life.

 

However he has two giant safes full of guns. Tons of guns, hunting guns, rifles you name it he has it...He is an avid hunter, his house is full of animals that he has killed and had hung...Ive been to his house upwards of 50 times with my family. My sons have NEVER seen a gun. I have seen his guns on one occasion, when he opened the safe, when the kids werent there...He is well off financially, works hard and is one of the safest guys i have ever met..

 

Now the argument is does he need all those guns? Most of you and probably me might say NO, he doesnt. Is he going to go to a night club and shoot up 50 people, absolutely not.

 

Most people would argue he shouldnt be killing animals, well thats your opinion...Its his sport, he does everything legally and licenses for everything that he does..There are people here that are Vegans, I dont agree with that lifestyle but good for them if they choose to lead it.

 

I asked him the other day, are you a member of the NRA, he said no he isnt.

 

My friend is an example of a responsible gun owner..I m sure he is one of millions of those in this country.. The issue is a tough one..I am all for gun control, I am all for ending these senseless killings.

 

Drugs are killing more of our innocent youth, alcohol which is legal kills too many people every year...And the one that no one talks about is obesity and the countries obsession with fast food...

 

I used to think it was a stupid argument..Ban guns, its easy ..Stop the killings...No its not that easy..

 

I don't doubt that your friend is a great guy, and a responsible gun owner.

 

Now, imagine we take all his guns away. Maybe let him keep a hunting rifle or two for his hobby. He will be personally offended, yes. But will it actually affect his quality of life in the long run? Maybe a little, but I doubt it.

 

Basically, I'm fine with the responsible gun owners getting the short end of the stick here if it means saving thousands of lives across the country over the long run. He'll say it's not fair, and maybe he's right, but I just don't care, and the government shouldn't either.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Drugs are killing more of our innocent youth, alcohol which is legal kills too many people every year...And the one that no one talks about is obesity and the countries obsession with fast food...

 

I used to think it was a stupid argument..Ban guns, its easy ..Stop the killings...No its not that easy..

 

I think quite a few people talk about obesity and the culture that encourages it, but still a fraction of the population does nothing about it.

IMO, it has a lot to do with poverty and class structure. McDonalds rolled out some kind of $1 menu recently, and sales (and profits) skyrocketed.

 

As for "no its not that easy". I think the guys would argue its not about solving the whole problem, its about reducing it right away a little, and more+more over time. Nothing will solve the problem right away, and there is no magic pill for this. Issues go way way deeper.

 

And, I dont agree with you at all that there is a sense of Republican means racist. Not to most people, just to some of the vocal minorities on both sides. And I really dont agree with you in terms of Conservatives in Canada, I dont think the majority or even 95% of Canadians think that way. At least, I dont THINK they do. I could be wrong.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I was just in suburban Florida... I felt *skinny*. Scary.

 

I know what you mean.

 

You know when I really see it, and it makes me sad? That its not just the McDonalds stuff.

Hit a Walmart at like midnight, and see the kind of grocery shopping some people do. Its carts full of premade junk, with next to no fruits and veggies, and its sad to see cause its moms who weigh over 300lbs and kids at ages like 8yrs old that already weigh 150.

 

Funny thing I learned about Florida a few years back. We think because the weather is so much hotter than here, that the people are active there. I met these guys in my building who had moved there from Montreal and they all said how they are beginning to hate Florida weather because its sooo hot and humid for many months that they spend LESS time outdoors than they did in Montreal. Cant go hiking, walking without breaking into a huge sweat, and its just not pleasurable for many months. At least in Canada in winter, you can go skiing/skating. In summer in Florida, heat is too much.

They're too young for this, but to them, ideal would be Florida from October-May, and Canada the rest of the time.

[Zach6668 513]

I absolutely believe that. It hit nearly 30 degrees each day I was there, middle of February. We were golfing, and it was nearly oppressively hot.

 

And they don't make being active easy. You need to load up a car and go somewhere 30 minutes away just to do it. I wouldn't bike on any of the streets I saw, even the ones with bike lanes (next to 45 mph traffic with no physical protection.)

[serge 904]

I think quite a few people talk about obesity and the culture that encourages it, but still a fraction of the population does nothing about it.

IMO, it has a lot to do with poverty and class structure. McDonalds rolled out some kind of $1 menu recently, and sales (and profits) skyrocketed.

 

As for "no its not that easy". I think the guys would argue its not about solving the whole problem, its about reducing it right away a little, and more+more over time. Nothing will solve the problem right away, and there is no magic pill for this. Issues go way way deeper.

 

And, I dont agree with you at all that there is a sense of Republican means racist. Not to most people, just to some of the vocal minorities on both sides. And I really dont agree with you in terms of Conservatives in Canada, I dont think the majority or even 95% of Canadians think that way. At least, I dont THINK they do. I could be wrong.

 

The $1 menu thing is messed up..I can feed my family for less than $10 at mcdonalds if I choose to...If I want to go to Subway, Chipotle its 3 times as much...

[serge 904]

I know what you mean.

 

You know when I really see it, and it makes me sad? That its not just the McDonalds stuff.

Hit a Walmart at like midnight, and see the kind of grocery shopping some people do. Its carts full of premade junk, with next to no fruits and veggies, and its sad to see cause its moms who weigh over 300lbs and kids at ages like 8yrs old that already weigh 150.

 

Funny thing I learned about Florida a few years back. We think because the weather is so much hotter than here, that the people are active there. I met these guys in my building who had moved there from Montreal and they all said how they are beginning to hate Florida weather because its sooo hot and humid for many months that they spend LESS time outdoors than they did in Montreal. Cant go hiking, walking without breaking into a huge sweat, and its just not pleasurable for many months. At least in Canada in winter, you can go skiing/skating. In summer in Florida, heat is too much.

They're too young for this, but to them, ideal would be Florida from October-May, and Canada the rest of the time.

 

Florida weather is by far the worst..

 

Not too give my home a plug, but I think we have the nicest weather here anywhere..Winter is very short, and already over...The coldest it gets at night during the winter is like 30s for a few weeks...Thats around 0 celsius....There are times like now..I can drive 2 hours up north and go skiing( I hate skiing) and in the same day I can go to the beach...I havent worn a winter jacket in the time I have lived here, if my son didnt play hockey and I lived in a lot of rinks, I would have even less warm clothing..

 

I use to make fun of my inlaws when I visited here when they use to say its 105 degrees but its dry..But its true..Humidity is not prevalent here...

 

One thing I do miss weather wise is some rain in the summer..From like late March to October, it doesnt rain here..Like NEVER some summers..

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

The $1 menu thing is messed up..I can feed my family for less than $10 at mcdonalds if I choose to...If I want to go to Subway, Chipotle its 3 times as much...

 

Feed your whole family for $10 without cooking+cleaning too. Busier lives, 2 jobs, too many things to do with the kids, and suddenly, that convenience for only $10 and it works for you.

Cooking veggies takes time! lol

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I use to make fun of my inlaws when I visited here when they use to say its 105 degrees but its dry..But its true..Humidity is not prevalent here...

 

my only experience is my Vegas trips, but many a time I've been out in over 100degree temps, with a suit on (for work) and not felt the heat. Even did a couple of walks on the strip to get to a couple of meetings, was worried I'd be sweating like a pig, but hardly anything. I absolutely love it.

I can only imagine how great a weather forecast people in San Diego have, Id move there in a second if so much of my life wasn't here.

[serge 904]

my only experience is my Vegas trips, but many a time I've been out in over 100degree temps, with a suit on (for work) and not felt the heat. Even did a couple of walks on the strip to get to a couple of meetings, was worried I'd be sweating like a pig, but hardly anything. I absolutely love it.

I can only imagine how great a weather forecast people in San Diego have, Id move there in a second if so much of my life wasn't here.

 

Fresno is very similar to Vegas weather..But you are right San Diego is probably the nicest place to live weather wise..However super expensive..

[Zach6668 513]

The $1 menu thing is messed up..I can feed my family for less than $10 at mcdonalds if I choose to...If I want to go to Subway, Chipotle its 3 times as much...

 

I don't think any of those three places are "healthy".

[serge 904]

I don't think any of those three places are "healthy".

 

True but you have more healthier choices

[Zach6668 513]

I suppose that's true, but the footlong I get from Subway is probably like 1400 calories. Lol.

 

I think Chipotle is a little better, though. Less crap like the sauces and cheeses at subway. The salsas are a lot better than, say, the extra chipotle mayo I get at subway. Lol.

[mrdannyg 274]

 

 

I don't doubt that your friend is a great guy, and a responsible gun owner.

 

Now, imagine we take all his guns away. Maybe let him keep a hunting rifle or two for his hobby. He will be personally offended, yes. But will it actually affect his quality of life in the long run? Maybe a little, but I doubt it.

 

Basically, I'm fine with the responsible gun owners getting the short end of the stick here if it means saving thousands of lives across the country over the long run. He'll say it's not fair, and maybe he's right, but I just don't care, and the government shouldn't either.

 

I think this is a strong point with lots of analogies. There are always arguments for “not punishing the innocent” but that’s only relevant because of existing laws - I never put on a shoe bomb and yet I take off my shoes at the airport...why am I punished? If I choose to snort cocaine or any other drugs on my own time and without endangering myself or others, why can’t I? Why punish me for the crimes of others?

 

I have no doubt serge’s friend would have no problem passing any licensing, insurance, background check requirements. He can have 100 guns if he wants if they’re all registered and his responsibility, and both he and the manufacturer are liable for misuse.

 

Also, serge’s friend might not even know he is an NRA member - almost every gun range and many large retailers (gun specific ones, not Walmart) require NRA membership. That’s how they get to say they represent 5 million people.

[digitalmonkey 929]

https://www.google.ca/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2018/02/15/gun-stocks-pop-again-in-aftermath-of-florida-school-shooting

 

Sales of guns has gone up considerably since Columbine.

 

There are more Americans that don't own a gun than there are who do own a gun. A lot of gun owners own multiple guns.

 

Talking about gun control and doing nothing about it is great business for gun makers.

 

Gun control of some sort, like Dubey suggested, would probably reduce mass shootings, but to get as close to zero mass shootings as possible, the issue of prescription drugs needs to be addressed. Like Arp said, the drug companies spend millions lobbying. Psychotropic drugs are unpredictable and they are most definitely over-prescribed. Combining guns and drugs is a deadly combo. Look how many of the shooters were on one or more psychotropic drugs or stopped taking their prescription. Like I said, these drugs are unpredictable...for some they actually help, for some they drive to suicide, and for some they result in violent behaviour.