Creation Museum

[vbnautilus 48]

The issue was that these two people were going to jail at the same time. The outcry over Bakker was disproportionate to the outcry over Milken.

Again, the outrage was because of the hypocrisy. Everyone already assumes stock traders are greedy bastards who will do everything they can to make more money, including finding loopholes and bending the rules. A preacher is holding himself to a higher standard and has broken a totally different kind of trust when he is found to be scamming and cheating everyone. Isn't that obvious?

[vbnautilus 48]

Nit, meet pickvb made the case that they raised money, the money did not go to the construction of a hotel but to line the pockets of a single man.Do you agree with vb?I said they did build the hotel, you yourself posted a picture of a hotel that was much closer to finished than it is to not startedDo you agree with that?

He sold over 10,000 rooms. That hotel you are picturing has about 500 rooms in it. He didn't build what he promised. $3.4 million of the investors money went to Bakker himself while $250K went to Jessica Hahn to keep her silent.Anyways it is always silly to compare legal sentences since there are so many factors that go into them (jurisdictions, lawyers, etc). The difference here seems to mostly relate to Milken getting a plea deal for paying back lots of money.

[brvheart 1,752]

Again, the outrage was because of the hypocrisy. Everyone already assumes stock traders are greedy bastards who will do everything they can to make more money, including finding loopholes and bending the rules. A preacher is holding himself to a higher standard and has broken a totally different kind of trust when he is found to be scamming and cheating everyone. Isn't that obvious?

But BG isn't talking about the morality of the issue. He is talking about how in the sight of the LAW it shouldn't matter, since "preachers" aren't supposed to be singled out by the justice system for extra punishment.Isn't that obvious?

[vbnautilus 48]

But BG isn't talking about the morality of the issue. He is talking about how in the sight of the LAW it shouldn't matter, since "preachers" aren't supposed to be singled out by the justice system for extra punishment.Isn't that obvious?

No, that's not all he is saying. He said "The outcry over Bakker was disproportionate to the outcry over Milken."(The legal comparison is pretty silly.)

[Balloon guy 158]

He sold over 10,000 rooms. That hotel you are picturing has about 500 rooms in it. He didn't build what he promised. $3.4 million of the investors money went to Bakker himself while $250K went to Jessica Hahn to keep her silent.Anyways it is always silly to compare legal sentences since there are so many factors that go into them (jurisdictions, lawyers, etc). The difference here seems to mostly relate to Milken getting a plea deal for paying back lots of money.

The hotel I showed was the one you said was never built

[Balloon guy 158]

Again, the outrage was because of the hypocrisy. Everyone already assumes stock traders are greedy bastards who will do everything they can to make more money, including finding loopholes and bending the rules. A preacher is holding himself to a higher standard and has broken a totally different kind of trust when he is found to be scamming and cheating everyone. Isn't that obvious?

Everyone assumes stock traders are greedy and therefore when they steal we are expecting it?And this is a justification for you that allows you to now call him a philanthropist after destroying who knows how many people fortunes and putting almost a billion in his own pocket?I didn't know how deeply you believed in situational ethics. Now I know.

[Balloon guy 158]

I myself said I was nitpicking. I thought it was simply an interesting linguistic question: at what point is a structure considered "built?"

'Never built' would probably never be linguistically confused for here's a structure with windows. ( Windows are not put in until deep into the construction, because they tend to break when iron beams are swinging around... )

My main and best point was that your image of the Tower was dishonestly pristine, and you failed to mention that it was never completed.

But was it never completed because Bakker never meant to have it completed? Or because the entire project failed after Bakker's fall from grace?You are trying to defend vb's case that 'the building was never built' when he was arguing that Bakker was taking the money for himself. And now you are trying to say that not having the microwaves installed is the same thing as diverting all the funds into a private slush fund.Now why would you desire to go this far to make this indefensible position?Either A: You feel immensely sorry for vb and are trying desperately to defend him no matter how ridiculous your argument. Or B: You cannot accept that anyone on your side can be wrong against anyone on my side. Which is bordering on psychotic behaviour.So are you in love with vb, or crazy?

[vbnautilus 48]

The hotel I showed was the one you said was never built

It's not what he promised to build. I can't quite understand what you are getting at here. Are you saying its ok to sell 10,000 rooms to a 501-room hotel as long as you are preaching christianity? You really think Milken got a lesser sentence because he was jewish? How does that work?

Everyone assumes stock traders are greedy and therefore when they steal we are expecting it?And this is a justification for you that allows you to now call him a philanthropist after destroying who knows how many people fortunes and putting almost a billion in his own pocket?I didn't know how deeply you believed in situational ethics. Now I know.

I was not comparing their moral transgressions; I was explaining the public's reactions to them, since you said you did not understand why there was outrage at one and not the other. But if I were to compare their moral transgressions, I would probably put more weight on what Bakker did. He stole more than money from people.

[Balloon guy 158]

It's not what he promised to build. I can't quite understand what you are getting at here. Are you saying its ok to sell 10,000 rooms to a 501-room hotel as long as you are preaching christianity?

Okay, let's go with this and see what we find...

From 1984 to 1987, Bakker and his PTL associates sold $1,000 "lifetime memberships", which entitled buyers to a three-night stay annually at a luxury hotel at Heritage USA. According to the prosecution at Bakker's later fraud trial, tens of thousands of memberships had been sold, but only one 500-room hotel was ever completed. Bakker "sold" more "exclusive partnerships" than could be accommodated, while raising more than twice the money needed to build the actual hotel.

So Bakker built a 500 room hotel, and promised people could stay there for 3 nights a YEAR.That would allow him to sell (500*365)/3Which is over 60,000 membershipsAnd Bakker raised more money than the cost of the hotel? Why that is amazing. There is never need for any more money to run a 500 person hotel once it is built.I mean really. Someone IN AMERICA over booked a vacation property? When we all know that every person who ever buys vacation time will take all of his vacation time every year for ever. No one ever has a year they don't go on vacation. Especially a paltry 60,000 families a year sample size.And this is course is more than a reasonable to go after Jim Bakker for destroying the faith of people, which is a crime punishable by years in prison.Destroying a person's retirement nest egg is a paltry crime in comparison.

You really think Milken got a lesser sentence because he was jewish? How does that work?

I think Bakker got a severe one, and because the Milkin trialwas going on at the same time, I use the two for comparison. Hey people gave Milkin their life savings to try to double it or triple it. They signed something that said there would be risk. They took a chance, just like the people who gave their money to Madoff. People gave Bakker a tiny bit of their life savings, in exchange for time in a hotel that was built. Bakker went down because of a sex scandal ( which we know how the democrat party feels about their leaders having 'just sex'), but you can't give a guy time in jail for being a cheater.

I was not comparing their moral transgressions; I was explaining the public's reactions to them, since you said you did not understand why there was outrage at one and not the other. But if I were to compare their moral transgressions, I would probably put more weight on what Bakker did. He stole more than money from people.

$1,000 for a 3 day vacation is way more damaging than losing your retirement nest egg?I guess I missed 'high' math in Jr high.

[timwakefield 68]

But was it never completed because Bakker never meant to have it completed? Or because the entire project failed after Bakker's fall from grace?

I don't get you. It wasn't like, whoops he tripped and fell!The building was never completed because Bakker stole the money that was supposed to be used for it. It's impressive that he actually got a building up there, but again it literally might not have plumbing, electricity, and it very certainly does not and never did have a paid staff. It's not like the people who prepaid for the rooms almost got them.

Either A: You feel immensely sorry for vb and are trying desperately to defend him no matter how ridiculous your argument. Or B: You cannot accept that anyone on your side can be wrong against anyone on my side. Which is bordering on psychotic behaviour.

Glad to see you've picked up on Henry's #1 most annoying habit. C. I was trying to make your statements about the building more accurate, since your weren't telling the whole story. People like Jim Bakker really piss me off, and I think it's bordering on psychotic behavior that you would try to defend his pretend-ministry-money-stealing-scheme.

[Balloon guy 158]

I don't get you. It wasn't like, whoops he tripped and fell!The building was never completed because Bakker stole the money that was supposed to be used for it. It's impressive that he actually got a building up there, but again it literally might not have plumbing, electricity, and it very certainly does not and never did have a paid staff.

Let's look at Heritage USA:

Heritage USA opened in 1978, and by 1986 had become one of the top vacation-destinations in the US, behind only Walt Disney World and Disneyland. It attracted nearly 6 million visitors annually and employed around 2,500 people.

In the midst of Heritage USA's high point, when it earned $126 million per year, the IRS revoked its tax exemption. Soon after Bakker's federal indictment and public condemnation over his sexual affair, attendance dropped at Heritage.

You said the building was never completed BECAUSE Bakker stole the money? This is a complete base-less assumption on your part. In fact Heritage USA tried to use a tax exempt status to its credit, after it started making huge money the IRS intervened ( Which I agree with, the tax exempt status of churches is not for churches to hide revenue on theme parks )So the real story is: Jim Bakker started Heritage USA, it became huge, the IRS saw money, Heritage USA needed a hotel, Bakker used his TV show to sell time shares, he sold 165,000 memberships, In a completely separate issue Bakker got caught in a sex scandal, the attendance to Heritage USA dropped because of the sex scandal, a hurricane damaged the park, the hotel's purpose became moot since the theme park closed, hence it was left unfinished. The IRS went after the money, they decided to make an issue of over booking that they ignore every day on airlines hotels and everything else sold in the world, Bakker got an unusually harsh sentence. At the same time Milkin got a very lenient sentence and walked away with $800,000,000.00.Bakker could very well have had plans for a second or third hotel and only begun his plans, there is a very real possibility that a time share expert wil explain why they can sell X% of rooms over the existing because of a known amount of unused weeks etc.To describe the above fact as: 'Never built the hotel and Bakker stole the money' is too far from the truth to be even close.Something to note; the park made $126 million per year. Bakker is accused of stealing $4 million. Put that into perspective as you condemn Bakker. I'm not sure that if I have hundreds of millions of dollars flowing over my fingers every year that I wouldn't get sticky fingers once in a while. Sure not going to condemn another for falling into that temptation.The sex scandal, that I can judge him on. The money...but for the grace of God there go I

Glad to see you've picked up on Henry's #1 most annoying habit. C. I was trying to make your statements about the building more accurate, since your weren't telling the whole story. People like Jim Bakker really piss me off, and I think it's bordering on psychotic behavior that you would try to defend his pretend-ministry-money-stealing-scheme.

The picture I posted was a picture of the hotel, because you showed a different picture with more damage is irrelevant. The level of deterioration of the hotel after years of being empty do not bring your point closer to being in line with VB's statement that the hotel was never built.Now if you want to say I was trying to lie about the hotel, then you have to explain why the hotel was not finished. If it was not finished because of a plan to not finish it and keep the money that is one thing. If it was not finished because of a myriad of other reasons that stopped the progress, then that is an entirely different thing.

[Balloon guy 158]

So the same people that say the earth was created in 7 days only 6,000 years ago are also telling us the park will attract 1.6 million visitors in it first year but refuse to provide the feasibility study. Forgive me if I question their math skills.

Funny but the whole thing about Heritage Park USA having an attendance of 6 million people a year in the late 70s kind of puts this 1.6 million estimation in a little perspective.I know you guys enjoyed mocking his 'math' and everything.But seems he was being quite conservative there.

[timwakefield 68]

Something to note; the park made $126 million per year. Bakker is accused of stealing $4 million. Put that into perspective as you condemn Bakker

Actually he was accused of, "eight counts of mail fraud, 15 counts of wire fraud and one count of conspiracy," and was convicted on all 24 charges. For whatever reason you think he should be compared to Michael Milken, and you think their disparate prison sentences obviously shows that America hates Christianity or something. But...they weren't really comparable. Milken accepted a plea agreement, which always always means a lower sentence. He also paid back $1.1 billion, as part of his plea deal. Bakker went to trial and lost, which is why he got such a harsh sentence. That's how our judicial system works. You said Milken was sentenced to 5 years, which is incorrect. He was actually sentenced to ten years, but the sentence was reduced to 2 years, of which he served 22 months. So he actually served 92% of his sentence. Bakker was sentenced to 45 years and was released after 5, having served 11% of his sentence (the fifth year served in a minimum security prison).Bakker probably could have gotten himself a sweet 10 year sentence too, if he'd plead guilty. I have a feeling you overlooked this fact when comparing the two men's sentences.

[Balloon guy 158]

Actually he was accused of, "eight counts of mail fraud, 15 counts of wire fraud and one count of conspiracy," and was convicted on all 24 charges. For whatever reason you think he should be compared to Michael Milken, and you think their disparate prison sentences obviously shows that America hates Christianity or something. But...they weren't really comparable. Milken accepted a plea agreement, which always always means a lower sentence. He also paid back $1.1 billion, as part of his plea deal. Bakker went to trial and lost, which is why he got such a harsh sentence. That's how our judicial system works. You said Milken was sentenced to 5 years, which is incorrect. He was actually sentenced to ten years, but the sentence was reduced to 2 years, of which he served 22 months. So he actually served 92% of his sentence. Bakker was sentenced to 45 years and was released after 5, having served 11% of his sentence (the fifth year served in a minimum security prison).Bakker probably could have gotten himself a sweet 10 year sentence too, if he'd plead guilty. I have a feeling you overlooked this fact when comparing the two men's sentences.

While what you say is factually correct, it still doesn't absolve you of your past failings with regards to the hotel.Also the statistically misleading facts of 92% of his sentence is not countered with 'having stolen 10,000X more money than Bakker'. I wonder why on one 'fact' you emphasize the percentage, but on the other you emphasize the amounts?Milken paid $1.1 BILLION in fines, that's real punishmentNot Milken had to pay back 60% of what he stoleThen somehow you make 5 years seem much shorter than 22 months.If there is this much effort in skewing the facts, I assume there is a reason.What do you feel that reason is?Also what does 8 counts of mail fraud mean? He supposedly sold 160,000 memberships to a hotel that was never built ( it was )How does 8 counts man anything? Oh...you wanted to make it seem like he broke more laws than Milken. Even though Milken stole $2 BILLION dollars, he only broke 1 law to do it...much much nicer than Bakker who stole 1/10,000ths that amount but sent 8 ILLEGAL LETTERS while doing it. ( the stamps were copies?)I will grant you that had Bakker not fought the railroading, the courts probably would have reduced his sentence to a term of 22 months, a term usually reserved for philanthropist who only stole a couple $billion and are left near penniless with only $800 million afterwards of their take.

[timwakefield 68]

Also what does 8 counts of mail fraud mean?

What was I, the prosecutor? I'm just saying, Bakker wasn't charged with "stealing $4 million." He was charged with a litany of offenses. My point, in fact, was that perhaps the case was slightly more complicated than you make it sound. It's not like one guy robbed a bank and took $4m cash and the other guy robbed a bank and took billions. They're two completely different and unrelated cases, and each man broke completely different laws than the other one. I honestly can't understand why you're defending Jim Bakker. As speedz said, isn't he kind of like the exact opposite of what a good Christian is supposed to be? The fact that he was found guilty on every single count he was charged with kind of throws a wrench into your "railroaded" theory. Two men can in fact commit an identical crime, and one will be given a drastically reduced sentence compared to the other because he plead guilty, while the other went to court and was convicted. However in this case, the two men didn't even break the same laws, and clearly none of us even understand precisely what laws each man broke and in what manner.What am I, the mail fraud expert? And yes, 5/45ths is a smaller number than 22/24ths. This is an inarguable mathematical certainty, since you asked.

[Balloon guy 158]

I honestly can't understand why you're defending Jim Bakker. As speedz said, isn't he kind of like the exact opposite of what a good Christian is supposed to be?

I am acting out my forgiveness for himThat's level 2 of being a good ChristianYou guys are throwing stones at a man who has paid his debt to society and is still paying his debt to the IRS.

[Balloon guy 158]

And yes, 5/45ths is a smaller number than 22/24ths. This is an inarguable mathematical certainty, since you asked.

No that is a misdirect from the reason they were both in jailStealing $4 million vs Stealing $2 billionNot the same thing

[vbnautilus 48]

In a completely separate issue Bakker got caught in a sex scandal

Not a completely separate issue. He used the Heritage USA investor's money to pay hush money to Jessica Hahn. That was part of the indictment.

The IRS went after the money, they decided to make an issue of over booking that they ignore every day on airlines hotels and everything else sold in the world, Bakker got an unusually harsh sentence

The place was supposedly in debt, but Bakker and his wife took a bonus of 3.5 million to fuel their lavish lifestyle (their doghouse had air conditioning). They repeatedly lied to the board of directors in order to conceal the financial state of the operation. Miles says he saw the light when he flew from his home in Forest Hills, N.Y., to help raise money for a PTL telethon in 1982. "They said they were going to pull the plug out of the TV satellite if they didn't get so many millions by a certain date," he recalls. "Tammy was crying, mascara running—'We've sold everything we have. This is a real crisis.' " After the fund drive was over, Miles claims, Jim's brother, Norm Bakker, told him, "There's no crisis. We had the money all along. This gave us a tool to raise money and something for people to rally around." Miles asked about a plea made four months previously, in which the Bakkers claimed that Heritage USA was going to be dismantled. "That was just the same thing—just business," says Miles, who alleges that Bakker used a fund-raising firm that composed carefully timed pitch letters and planned each "crisis" in advance. The letters, says Miles, were sent "to arrive the same time that the welfare and Social Security checks come, the first week of every month." Miles says he told a PTL producer "little old ladies are eating cat food to send in their money for God" and walked out. He now suspects that the PTL's "overseas ministries" were nonexistent and that film clips purporting to show the PTL in Brazil, Italy and Africa were shot in a corner of the Heritage Village studios. Here's another example of how he spent his constituent's money: Fletcher said he himself had homosexual encounters with Bakker on three occasions. Their affair reportedly began when Bakker made advances to Fletcher as Fletcher was giving him a back rub in the ministry sauna at Heritage Village. Shepard recounts that one aide who traveled often with Bakker, a married man, used to give Bakker back rubs that Bakker took as a prelude to masturbation. Though upset and disgusted by his role as Bakker's geisha, the employee explained that Bakker compensated him for this arousal service with an unlimited budget, travel and his assurance that this was God's work. He was tried and convicted of 24 counts of of wire fraud, mail fraud, consipiracy, and tax evasion, each of which carried a maximum prison sentence of 5 years. He was defrauding everyone around him. He wrote a book entitled "I Was Wrong". I don't see why he should not face a prison sentence. What sentence do you think would have been fair?

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

I didn't know until this thread that his name was spelled with two K's.

[Balloon guy 158]

I didn't know until this thread that his name was spelled with two K's.

It would have 3 if VB was allowed to change it.

[Balloon guy 158]

I don't see why he should not face a prison sentence. What sentence do you think would have been fair?

When did I say he received too much time for his crime?I said Milken received too little when you look at both side by side, and since they happened at roughly the same time, its a fair comparison. Public opinion and judges being relatively equal and all.I am also fine with him getting busted for everything he did and having to pay for it. I hope every dishonest Christian 'leader' is held to the very letter and intent of the law.I just don't think people like Milken should get lenient treatment because he is rich.And PULEESSSEEE don't tell me how lavish Bakker was on $4millionThat is an insult to rich people.$4million wouldn't even get an invite to join a country club of the rich people around here.

[timwakefield 68]

I am acting out my forgiveness for him

Oh. But you don't forgive the other guy who you were randomly comparing him to? I mean it's not like he's done any good for anybody since he's been out. Oh wait...The Man Who Changed MedicineMike Milken spent a year beating prostate cancer. He spent the next decade shaking up cancer research. Now thousands of men are living longer--and leaders everywhere are taking notice.

[vbnautilus 48]

When did I say he received too much time for his crime?I said Milken received too little when you look at both side by side, and since they happened at roughly the same time, its a fair comparison. Public opinion and judges being relatively equal and all.I am also fine with him getting busted for everything he did and having to pay for it. I hope every dishonest Christian 'leader' is held to the very letter and intent of the law.I just don't think people like Milken should get lenient treatment because he is rich.And PULEESSSEEE don't tell me how lavish Bakker was on $4millionThat is an insult to rich people.$4million wouldn't even get an invite to join a country club of the rich people around here.

It went a lot further in the 80s.

[Balloon guy 158]

Oh. But you don't forgive the other guy who you were randomly comparing him to? I mean it's not like he's done any good for anybody since he's been out. Oh wait...The Man Who Changed MedicineMike Milken spent a year beating prostate cancer. He spent the next decade shaking up cancer research. Now thousands of men are living longer--and leaders everywhere are taking notice.

So he cut out 1/200ths ( you like percentages ) of his stolen loot to get a tax write off and a dinner in his honer and now we are supposed to feel grateful?I don't give Jim Bakker any credit anymore. I'm sure he is forgiven, I forgive him,but I don't allow him to take a place of authority over me because he's thrown that right out.You guys are hating on Bakker while giving Milken a full pass because he used a tiny portion of the money he stole to help people?If Bakke gave $20,000 to any charity, he would be 10xs more generous with his stolen loot as Milken.Please do not ignore the action of stealing $2 billion through crooked 'investment' actions that also caused many people to lose tons of money i the process.I bet not one person who invested that $1,000 in Bakker had to postpone their retirement by 10 years.

[Balloon guy 158]

It went a lot further in the 80s.

Not as far as Milken's $800 million didIt would take Bakker 200 years to steal as much as Milken got to keep if he maintained the $4million a year con game.500 years to steal as much as Milken did.500 years.