Toll Free (fr) (2/4)

[Stupidhead 2]

I think you're missing my point... if what you say is true then:

He's never raise/folding for value. So if we donk and get raised, there's almost nothing we can expect to be folding. The problem with trying to bluff this spot is that if villain bets, I never expect him to be weak. He's cbetting into 2 players, one of which is a megafish. And his range of value hands becomes more narrow since he 3bet. That another reason why I like donking. If villain doesn't have KK/JJ/AA/AK, I expect this to be checked through a lot. And those 4 hands make up a majority of his range since he hasn't been 3betting that much. If we somehow knew that his range was capped to AA and he never had KK/JJ, I would not be opposed to turning our entire range into a bluff against a bunch of players. But as it is, even if he folds those hands 100% of the time, I don't think that makes up for the times we run into KK/JJ.

[Ninja Ace 1]

To be perfectly honest, saying that a check-raise here can neither work for value for the 3rd nuts or as a bluff comes off as "I'm scared to put money in the pot"I find the two extremes being simultaneously untrue to be extremely unlikely

[Stupidhead 2]

To be perfectly honest, saying that a check-raise here can neither work for value for the 3rd nuts or as a bluff comes off as "I'm scared to put money in the pot"I find the two extremes being simultaneously untrue to be extremely unlikely

My last post was referring to if we donked. If we had air and wanted to bluff, a check/raise wouldn't be as bad. But I only like it if villain has a wide enough 3betting range and cbets way too much. If he somehow can have KQ/KT/AJ type hands, or just pure air when he cbets, then c/r becomes a lot better. But in this spot I don't expect his cbetting range to go beyond AA/KK/JJ/AK. QQ/AQ shouldn't be cbetting that often if at all. And I don't think his 3betting range goes beyond AA-JJ/AK/AQ. It's possible there's a few other random hands in his range but given the info we have, we just have to assume his range is tight. Plus, we're going to need to fire flop/turn/river for him to fold AA/AK. It probably does work, I just don't think it makes up for the times we run into KK/JJ and spew off 250 bigs. I'm not saying that a c/r for value or as a bluff isn't profitable against anyone. The situation is entirely villain dependant. But given the reads on this specific villain I just don't think we should be trying to bluff him, or try to get in bottom set 250 deep.

[Ninja Ace 1]

But given the reads on this specific villain I just don't think we should be trying to bluff him, or try to get in bottom set 250 deep.

Which makes it a fold pre then...and yes, donk/3betting as a bluff would be like, the worst thing ever here

[Stupidhead 2]

Which makes it a fold pre then...

No, it doesn't. This whole argument of "if we called to flop a set, and won't stack off when we do, we shouldn't play it" is just stupid. Just because we're not willing to get stacks in on this board does not mean that calling pre won't be profitable long term. We don't need to stack villain for this to be profitable. If just the megafish stacks off, it's profitable. If we just get 2 streets of value from the reg, it's profitable. And this is one of the few boards where I'd be hesitant to get stacks in. Any board where we have middle set (which will be on the majority of boards) or top set I'd be a lot more inclined to stack off.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Not that often. But we don't need the nuts to stack off, we just need to be making a +ev play vs opponents range. 3b pre = tighter range. 250bb = tighter range. We have this discussion every few months, and I will never join the "zomg set, stack off no matter what" camp. There have been HHs posted where hero correctly folds bottom set even for 100bbs.Rebuttal:How often do you not get shown the nuts when you put in 250bbs vs a 400nl reg?

I have to be real honest about this hand: I get shown AK in this spot ALL the time; especially when I apply serious pressure. The more chips I put in the pot in here, the more people seem to assign a big draw to me. If I had to assign a hand, AK with a 4flush draw/flush blocker would be my first guess. People love to call. People hate to fold a "made hand" like AK or AA.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I guess where I'm coming from is, we play this hand pre mostly to flop sets... now we flopped a set and are unsure what to do, so why did we play pre?I don't think there's any disagreement about leading this flop making the hand 10 billion times easier and more profitable to play... but we're in this spot now so... we kind of have to try to get stacks in.If we can't confidently check-raise stacks in, and our plan on the flop starts with a check, then that means we have a huge leak in our game preflop. So while I don't necessarily have a huge problem with thinking we don't get enough action to justify the check-raise, I do have a huge problem playing the hand the way we have thus far if we do not check-raise.

Yeah, you know, I'm not talking about check shoving; I want to get more chips in the pot on the flop. I don't think we just come over the top with all chips. I said raise to $250.

[mtdesmoines 3]

You rly come off as trying to sound like an expert for someone who isn't that great at poker.So since no one is that donking isn't the best option, those that want to c/r get it in, are you donk/3bet/getting it in if raised? Cuz i think that's equally if not more suicidal than a c/r.

I'm going to ignore that.

[CobaltBlue 662]

This seems to me like an overly specific set of conditions. Even T8x isn't perfect for x=7. So we want a flop containing an 8, but no cards above a ten, and not all of one suit, and not making a plausible straight.

I'd be quite willing to get it in on T87dd since his chance of 3-betting J9 isn't that great (and we can outdraw it). If it's all of one suit, that's perfectly fine...because he'll be more apt to stack with AA/KK with the flush draw. As for straight boards, it's going to be difficult for him to have a straight on a board where we make a set.

[KingJames 11]

No, it doesn't. This whole argument of "if we called to flop a set, and won't stack off when we do, we shouldn't play it" argument is just stupid. Just because we're not willing to get stacks in on this board does not mean that calling pre won't be profitable long term. We don't need to stack villain for this to be profitable. If just the megafish stacks off, it's profitable. If we just get 2 streets of value from the reg, it's profitable. And this is one of the few boards where I'd be hesitant to get stacks in. Any board where we have middle set (which will be on the majority of boards) or top set I'd be a lot more inclined to stack off.

0o0o0o0o0 baby +1

I have to be real honest about this hand: I get shown AK in this spot ALL the time; especially when I apply serious pressure. The more chips I put in the pot in here, the more people seem to assign a big draw to me. If I had to assign a hand, AK with a 4flush draw/flush blocker would be my first guess. People love to call. People hate to fold a "made hand" like AK or AA.

I can respect a lot of what you are saying. I think the difference between the live games (I for some reason have this idea youre primarily a live player) and the online midstakes is where the majority of our differing opinions is coming from.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I'd be quite willing to get it in on T87dd since his chance of 3-betting J9 isn't that great (and we can outdraw it). If it's all of one suit, that's perfectly fine...because he'll be more apt to stack with AA/KK with the flush draw. As for straight boards, it's going to be difficult for him to have a straight on a board where we make a set.

Another problem with the hand, and I need to go back and re-read the whole post again, but we are assigning a tight image to a player we have only 148 hands on, and he's only 3bet us when in position. "Button is new to Bodog, so don't have too much history with him. He's got a 3bet of 3.3% over 148 hands. This is the third time he'd done this smallish 3bet on me in position."Maybe I don't know, but it seems like a really small sample, and it seems like he could be making position raises on us (esp. if our image is loose), or he's trying to isolate the fish, too. There are a TON of reasons to love our 888 hand on the flop. I understand we're deep. But that's also an opportunity for us.

[CobaltBlue 662]

There are a TON of reasons to love our 888 hand on the flop. I understand we're deep. But that's also an opportunity for us.

It's not a matter of not "loving" our hand. I mean, I do love it in the sense that I think I have the best hand gobs and gobs. That said, do I love it if all of the money goes in on the flop at this level? Probably not as much.

[mtdesmoines 3]

It's not a matter of not "loving" our hand. I mean, I do love it in the sense that I think I have the best hand gobs and gobs. That said, do I love it if all of the money goes in on the flop at this level? Probably not as much.

That's why I said we raise to $250. That leaves about $700 behind. All this discussion about a shove is kind of silly because it's so far above a PSB that it's a ridiculous notion that we can get it in anyway. If we get shoved over the top by the nit, (which I'm not convinced we have enough info to say he's a nit in the first place), then we can think. But we have a fish and a weak PF isolation raise.