Toll Free (fr) (2/4)

[CobaltBlue 662]

I don't see what you're doing with this range. You're doing a preflop analysis with no board, but limiting the villain to hands with a diamond.

Edit: Whoa. Did I really run that range pre? Bleh. You're correct.

[KingJames 11]

All the AK hands. All the OESD hands. All the AA hands.QKFlush drawsI mean ... the hands we made money from heavily outnumber the hands we paid off.

250bb deep severely caps the range in which villain will get all the money in. I believe we're in a -ev spot if all the money goes in on the flopI do think leading the flop is best. Then once we c.c the flop, a turn lead would be awkward, but I might lean toward it some % bc once he gets called in two spots, he's likely giving up with his air and some of his draws.It's an interesting, tough hand, but I don't think c.r or donk/3betting and getting all the money in on the flop is good unless we know he will stack 250bb with AA. Only one way to find out though, right?

[mtdesmoines 3]

250bb deep severely caps the range in which villain will get all the money in. I believe we're in a -ev spot if all the money goes in on the flopI do think leading the flop is best. Then once we c.c the flop, a turn lead would be awkward, but I might lean toward it some % bc once he gets called in two spots, he's likely giving up with his air and some of his draws.It's an interesting, tough hand, but I don't think c.r or donk/3betting and getting all the money in on the flop is good unless we know he will stack 250bb with AA. Only one way to find out though, right?

"I believe we're in a -ev spot if all the money goes in on the flop" -- yeah, but we are trying to get THEM to make the mistake; trying to make THEM make the -EV move, and the range of hands that will do that is much . Our hand has tremendous value and is only behind a very small percentage of existing hands. I've seen so many players go broke with AK on this board, because they want the money and absolutely convince themselves that every raise here is a flush draw. Pumping this pot on the flop also avoids the "awkward" decisions we face on the turn. I'm just saying ... I don't know that I'm advocating getting it all in on the flop because the bet sizes are so awkward to do it. But I think we profit handsomely long-term by raising the flop bet.

[Ninja Ace 1]

If they seriously only ever get it in with JJ or KK here thena) you make money in this spot anywayb) LOLIHAS2CARDZALLING

[KingJames 11]

If they seriously only ever get it in with JJ or KK here thena) you make money in this spot anywayb) LOLIHAS2CARDZALLING

I do believe that a lot of online regs don't get anything in but KK JJ and maybe a royal draw if they don't mind the variance.Yes, we can c.r almost any two and put immense pressure on them bc of the depth. So in this case, we just need to be able to make the fold if we c.r and get 3b, right?Which is why leading is better than c.rIf we lead 3 streets, he can call down with AA, AK and the parts of his range that aren't KK and JJ.

[BaseJester 1]

I do believe that a lot of online regs don't get anything in but KK JJ and maybe a royal draw if they don't mind the variance.Yes, we can c.r almost any two and put immense pressure on them bc of the depth.

The stack-to-pot ratio is about 10:1. Thinking of this as a deep-stack situation is a mistake, IMHO.

[BaseJester 1]

If we can't get the money in on a draw heavy board and a flopped set and be happy about it, why the **** are we playing this hand?We're not deep enough to quad-mine.

[KingJames 11]

If we can't get the money in on a draw heavy board and a flopped set and be happy about it, why the **** are we playing this hand?We're not deep enough to quad-mine.

We called preflop bc we were closing action, IP vs a fish and oop vs a player we are deep with and the 3b size was very small. A different board texture gives us a great situation to get it in on. Or if you really believe that the villain will stack a ton of AXdd hands and other combo draws, then yeah, get it in. I personally believe that most of the time we get it in on the flop in a check/raise/3bet/call spot we're going to be against KK and JJ. Maybe a few AKdd and QTdd, and AA if the guy isn't solid, but based on the 3b stat that marchant provided, I don't think he 3bets small with QTdd and T9dd too often. Especially with a "super donk" in the bb, he should almost never 3b light, and look to play pots IP with deeper stacks and with the bb.Deep nl can be pretty nitty. Sometimes a cooler isn't a cooler and being able to correctly analyze your opponents range and get away from a hand where the 2p2 crowd says, get it in no doubt, can add to a winrate. Thinking we have to stack 250bb with bottom set when most villain aren't putting their stack in unless they have us crushed is far more of a mistake than considering this a deep stack spot.

[KingJames 11]

The disagreement of getting it in is meh.I think the most important thing is that checking the flop was a mistake. We run the risk of it checking through.Donking flop and turn to get value from the draws and two streets from tp hands > c.r and getting it in way behind, flipping vs a combo draws and occasionally crushing AA. Not to mention we really want to play the hand IP vs the bb. Donking put the btn in a spot where he kinda has to play straight forward, which is good for us.I could be way wrong about all of this, but it's just my opinion. /nit

[CobaltBlue 662]

If we can't get the money in on a draw heavy board and a flopped set and be happy about it, why the **** are we playing this hand?We're not deep enough to quad-mine.

Because we'd be absolutely thrilled if the flop came T8x. This just happened to be one of the textures where I wasn't quite as thrilled to flop a set. I mean, I might even be happier if it was AK8 (since he'd almost always stack off with AK).And yeah, KJ...donking the flop is the way to go. I posted this as a reminder that I need to slow down my actions sometimes and not auto-pilot.

[KingJames 11]

Because we'd be absolutely thrilled if the flop came T8x. This just happened to be one of the textures where I wasn't quite as thrilled to flop a set. I mean, I might even be happier if it was AK8 (since he'd almost always stack off with AK).And yeah, KJ...donking the flop is the way to go. I posted this as a reminder that I need to slow down my actions sometimes and not auto-pilot.

Agreed this is huge, flop texture is so important.On a board where he can have more over pairs and over-cards + fd, we're much happier.

[trystero 0]

A 25nl reg isn't going ai otf with one pair with these stacks. A 400nl reg most certainly won't

[Stupidhead 2]

I didn't want to post in this thread because I didn't want to troll and start an e-fight (and Cobalt already knows my thoughts on this hand) but some of the posts in here are rly ridiculous and I don't want inexperienced players following them.To not think about this hand as a deep stack hand is a huge mistake. The 3bet preflop reduces everyones ranges and are not going to be the same as a single raised pot 100 bb's deep. Cobalt said Villain only had a 3bet of 3.3 (keeping in mind AA/KK/AK makes up 2.1%). That doesn't necessarily mean that this guy is only 3betting the top 3.3% of his range, and it might not be super accurate given the sample size, but it's enough to know he's not a 3bet monkey. So to say that there's a ton of hands we can get value from is just wrong. His 3bet polarizes his range to stronger hands. It's so unlikely that he'll ever show up with KJo or J9dd. It's hard to say what his range is tho because his 3bet is so small and he could easily mix in some mediocre hands in position. In terms of what I'd do, I agree with pretty much everything james has said. I also agree with Trystero that reads are so so so important in these types of spots. Because while there are a bunch of players who will only get in KK/JJ there are also a bunch that won't be able to fold AA/AK because they hate folding pairs. But in a vacuum, someone who's playing TAG will generally not want to get in AA/AK on that board.

[KingJames 11]

I read your and Jesse's thoughts and plagiarized.

[BaseJester 1]

And then we can turn a set into a bluff when the Qd hits, and make him fold KK

I'm not sure if you're serious here or not, but this seems like a big risk. You'd have to bet big enough to dissuade the villain from drawing to a full house, but more often than not his hand contains the Kd, and the villain will be willing to put his money in even if he's convinced that he is behind.

[BaseJester 1]

Because we'd be absolutely thrilled if the flop came T8x. This just happened to be one of the textures where I wasn't quite as thrilled to flop a set.

This seems to me like an overly specific set of conditions. Even T8x isn't perfect for x=7. So we want a flop containing an 8, but no cards above a ten, and not all of one suit, and not making a plausible straight.

I mean, I might even be happier if it was AK8 (since he'd almost always stack off with AK).

I don't think AK on a AK8 flop looks that much better than AK on a KJd8d flop. If the villain stacks off his 250bb with AK, does he expect to trap A8 or K8 in a 3-bet pot?

[KingJames 11]

I'm not sure if you're serious here or not, but this seems like a big risk. You'd have to bet big enough to dissuade the villain from drawing to a full house, but more often than not his hand contains the Kd, and the villain will be willing to put his money in even if he's convinced that he is behind.

1000000000000000% half joking

[mtdesmoines 3]

How often do you guys get the stone cold nuts?I'm not joking.

[KingJames 11]

How often do you guys get the stone cold nuts?I'm not joking.

Not that often. But we don't need the nuts to stack off, we just need to be making a +ev play vs opponents range. 3b pre = tighter range. 250bb = tighter range. We have this discussion every few months, and I will never join the "zomg set, stack off no matter what" camp. There have been HHs posted where hero correctly folds bottom set even for 100bbs.Rebuttal:How often do you not get shown the nuts when you put in 250bbs vs a 400nl reg?

[BaseJester 1]

and I will never join the "zomg set, stack off no matter what" camp.

This is a strawman. I don't think there's anybody in this camp, the same way there's nobody in the "zomg, I don't have the nuts, fold" camp.

[Ninja Ace 1]

I guess where I'm coming from is, we play this hand pre mostly to flop sets... now we flopped a set and are unsure what to do, so why did we play pre?I don't think there's any disagreement about leading this flop making the hand 10 billion times easier and more profitable to play... but we're in this spot now so... we kind of have to try to get stacks in.If we can't confidently check-raise stacks in, and our plan on the flop starts with a check, then that means we have a huge leak in our game preflop. So while I don't necessarily have a huge problem with thinking we don't get enough action to justify the check-raise, I do have a huge problem playing the hand the way we have thus far if we do not check-raise.

[Stupidhead 2]

How often do you guys get the stone cold nuts?I'm not joking.

You rly come off as trying to sound like an expert for someone who isn't that great at poker.So since no one is that donking isn't the best option, those that want to c/r get it in, are you donk/3bet/getting it in if raised? Cuz i think that's equally if not more suicidal than a c/r.

[Ninja Ace 1]

So since no one is that donking isn't the best option, those that want to c/r get it in, are you donk/3bet/getting it in if raised? Cuz i think that's equally if not more suicidal than a c/r.

I'm not going to donk/fold, and anyone who says so, i think you should quit pokerAnd, honestly, after it goes we donk, if we get raised... it barely matters what we do because stacks will be getting in unless the other person has air... so at that point you could flat or shove and i really don't see it making a difference.

[Stupidhead 2]

I'm not going to donk/fold, and anyone who says so, i think you should quit pokerAnd, honestly, after it goes we donk, if we get raised... it barely matters what we do because stacks will be getting in unless the other person has air... so at that point you could flat or shove and i really don't see it making a difference.

Def never donk/folding, but again, I just don't think any decent reg is ever going to 3bet AK/AA. It makes zero sense to do so as our range is going to sets/combo draws almost always. And if we do have pure air, 3betting shuts us out. Plus there's still a fish to act behind us. So he's never going to bluff us in this spot. There are guys in the micros and even midstakes where I wouldn't have a problem just getting stacks in. But as you move up limits, the number of those people is going to become fewer and fewer. There are some super LAG regs I've faced at 2/4 where I'd probably flat and let them barrel off, but the rest I would be trying to find a fold on some street. The majority of regs are straight forward nits who don't like getting in over 200 bigs without the nizzles. I think you're way overestimating what your average 2/4 reg will get in here.

[Ninja Ace 1]

I think you're way overestimating what your average 2/4 reg will get in here.

I think you're missing my point... if what you say is true then:

If they seriously only ever get it in with JJ or KK here thena) you make money in this spot anywayb) LOLIHAS2CARDZALLING

Iono... maybe I'm just a shove monkey