Big Draw In Position

[Stupidhead 2]

or....Bet flop, don't be retard, collect stacks, ez game.

I like it.

[Stupidhead 2]

1) We're a favorite over mid pairs... why bother trying to fold them out?2) How can we fold off a K with a double barrel but expect one pair to stack off on a broadway heavy multiway pot?3) against bottom 2 we have 42%... and that's the worst hand we can expect to stack off against... sets we have 30% and QT we have the same equity as against bottom 2. In these scenarios we lose 8% of $25 at best which is $2... much more than the $1.25 in FE Jester pointed out... and you only get that entire $1.25 if you fold them out 100% of the time.You're really overvaluing your bluff equity against the table TBH

Or I hate the idea of calling or folding when the turn blanks and someone bets out. Or I'm not assuming we're going to be paid off when we check and hit the turn.Or I don't hate money.

[droberts 3]

they both work imo.

[Ninja Ace 1]

change the dynamic of the hand and squeeze pre. bet flop.. stack someone on turn.. ez game.

This is fantastic as well. NH sir

[BaseJester 1]

Not getting your money in good?

Not getting it in especially good. I don't get involved in this hand in the hopes of coin-flipping. I'm OK with it, but it's not the result that motivates the call preflop.

You're never in bad shape here. If someone spazzes with a flush draw we are a huge favorite. If someone stacks off with 1 pair, then our A is also live and we're a favorite. Against 2 pair or a set we have 12 clean outs. Against a straight, we have 11 clean outs.

The J is dirty. I'm not sure what one pair hands without an ace that you have in mind that check-raise the flop. KQ, JQ. J something ? But yeah, there are many hands that we're only a slight dog to, sets to which we're a 2:1 dog, and draws that we crush.

[Ninja Ace 1]

Or I hate the idea of calling or folding when the turn blanks and someone bets out. Or I'm not assuming we're going to be paid off when we check and hit the turn.Or I don't hate money.

Why the hell would you fold the turn to any reasonable bet on a blank with so many outs and position?You won't get paid off every time you hit the turn... but the implied odds are so humongous you don't have to get paid off very often

[Jordan 1]

recommend you stop saying implied odds.ezbet on the flop, lol

[BaseJester 1]

ezbet on the flop, lol

You were in diapers the last time you played full-ring. Get off my lawn. :-)This is a real question, by the way.

If you're looking over my shoulder, how much would you pay to take over this hand after I check the flop but before the turn card comes out?

[Hector Cerif 0]

betting this flop is silly because we don't have the best hand.There is no way this flop didn't hit someone smack hard in the face, and the bet/raise turn proves this.edit: and raise raise raise turn, we get as much in from straight, smaller flush, trips as we can right now, rather than putting them to a bigger test on river.

[gary21212121 0]

1) We're a favorite over mid pairs... why bother trying to fold them out?that way we win the hand 100% of the time2) How can we fold off a K with a double barrel but expect one pair to stack off on a broadway heavy multiway pot? our hand has a lot of equity but its still ace high, so even though we dont mind getting it in, we want to win the hand without showdown whenever possible. 3) against bottom 2 we have 42%... and that's the worst hand we can expect to stack off against... sets we have 30% and QT we have the same equity as against bottom 2. In these scenarios we lose 8% of $25 at best which is $2... much more than the $1.25 in FE Jester pointed out... and you only get that entire $1.25 if you fold them out 100% of the time. only if his range was wider than air and nut hands...You're really overvaluing your bluff equity against the table TBH you're overvaluing the benefits from playing passive

[gary21212121 0]

betting this flop is silly because we don't have the best hand.

this isnt a good enough reason to never bet

[BaseJester 1]

1) We're a favorite over mid pairs... why bother trying to fold them out?

that way we win the hand 100% of the time

You have no idea how pleased I am to see this concept expressed correctly, no matter how much you hate my line.

[Hector Cerif 0]

this isnt a good enough reason to never bet

because we dont have the best hand, because we will win by betting 0% of the time, because by betting we reopen the action, which on this board means check raise 90% of the time,

[Merby 3]

Your argument to check back the flop seems so nice when we bink a spade on the turn for the nuts. What happens the majority of the time when you check back the flop and a blank card falls? Now an opponent bets into you pricing you out of your one card draw. Do you1) Fold because you aren't getting the right price to chase your draw, thereby losing the pot?2) Call, trying to hit your draw on the river -- even though the bad price is making you lose money in the long run?3) Raise, thereby turning your hand (which had good equity on the flop) into a semi-bluff with much lower equity?Suddenly choosing to check back the flop doesn't feel so appealing now, does it?

[rrumsey 0]

$2.10 all day and we try to get it in.

this all day

[babylondonks 5]

for all those that bet the flop, one condescending question:Do you ever account for your position, stack sizes, and fold equity... or is it "lulz i has a big draw and DN says to mash betting when I has one"?Also, please note we have already picked up more than the fold equity we gain on the flop by betting it and action hasn't even gotten to us and we have one street left.Huge implied odds ftw,Thanks

It's hilarious just how wrong you are. I can't wait until you post in 5 pages time that you've been "levelling" every post in the last week. Seriously though, I am so glad that you have these thought processes, proves that the games won't die for a while.

[Stupidhead 2]

It's hilarious just how wrong you are. I can't wait until you post in 5 pages time that you've been "levelling" every post in the last week. Seriously though, I am so glad that you have these thought processes, proves that the games won't die for a while.

QFT

[Babylon Is Right 0]

It's hilarious just how wrong you are. I can't wait until you post in 5 pages time that you've been "levelling" every post in the last week. Seriously though, I am so glad that you have these thought processes, proves that the games won't die for a while.

He's right you know.

[Danege 1]

He's right you know.

Hahahaha so awesome.

[Lucoo_ 0]

I love it how a lot of people make the argument not to bet the flop because fold equity is lower when more players are in the hand. So if you are 50% to win the hand, you bet this flop and 2 others call. How is it not profitable to put in 33% of the money in the pot when having a 50% chance to win. And on top of that you still have at least some FE.

[mtdesmoines 3]

OMG <3 this thread.

[BaseJester 1]

Your argument to check back the flop seems so nice when we bink a spade on the turn for the nuts. What happens the majority of the time when you check back the flop and a blank card falls? Now an opponent bets into you pricing you out of your one card draw. Do you1) Fold because you aren't getting the right price to chase your draw, thereby losing the pot?2) Call, trying to hit your draw on the river -- even though the bad price is making you lose money in the long run?3) Raise, thereby turning your hand (which had good equity on the flop) into a semi-bluff with much lower equity?Suddenly choosing to check back the flop doesn't feel so appealing now, does it?

This is a fair criticism. I don't want to be results oriented. There are times when it's better to have all the money in on the flop to avoid awkward turn problems. I don't think this is one of them.After a brick falls on the turn, if we think, "Crap, I wish all the money was already in the pot so I didn't have to fold", what's stopping us from putting it all in on the turn? How are we worse off for adding the decision point after the turn card? On the other hand, if we feel we need to have all the money in on the flop to ensure action for the times we do hit, that's legitimate.Furthermore, we're very unlikely to take a bath on the turn action. We're a 2:1 dog in a $2.25 pot for an equity of about 75 cents. If the villain bets the pot, we make a break-even call from a pot-odds perspective. We paid $2.25 and now we are a 2:1 dog in a $7.50 pot for an equity of about $2.50. The turn action cost us a mere $0.50. If the villain wakes up on the turn and overbets the pot, he can force us to lose our 75 cents. That's certainly bad, but it's again cents and not dollars like we stand to win.

[BaseJester 1]

Pot equity? Wat? Why are you even remotely concerned with this? Like I get the concept but it just seems so useless. When we hit, it increases. When we miss, it decreases proportionally. Which means it'll just average out to the same as our flop equity. There's no reason to take this into consideration when we're trying to make our decision.

I'm sure you've applied this same concept without thinking specifically in these terms.Suppose you flop quads in a $1 pot. If you bet and everyone folds, you don't think to yourself, "Wow, that bet just made me $1." You don't think that because your equity in the pot is so high that almost all of the $1 was yours already. The same thing holds in this hand, only with an equity of only around 50%. Half the pot is already ours, so semi-bluffing doesn't gain us the total value of the pot. You might want to read Wang's problem on this topic.

[KingJames 11]

OMG <3 this thread.

[Ninja Ace 1]

It's hilarious just how wrong you are. I can't wait until you post in 5 pages time that you've been "levelling" every post in the last week. Seriously though, I am so glad that you have these thought processes, proves that the games won't die for a while.

SMMFD I've been wrong about one post this week and that was the AK/AQ hand I looked at for 2 seconds.You act like I'm some huge long term loser and that either checking or betting this flop will result in losses when it's a matter of deciding how to optimize profit.SMMFD