Suited Slick

[TrueAce13 18]

Sooo...I still think a ship PF or on the flop is the correct move. Wait, am I in the right thread?!But seriously, I really think that RDog has said a lot of good stuff, but he also admits that he doesn't really know the play of $10NL and states that you can play this hand a few different ways, so I don't know why we are making him out to be the bad guy in this. I think Nobb is just taking it the wrong way and believes its a personal attack.To go with that, I really agree with Tskillz post and I think that is the main reason the better players who are beating higher stakes do not post in the strat forum anymore. When they try to make a point, or make a post that seems very critical, many people just assume that they are being arrogant for having more money and being able to make a living of poker. Where actually, they know that tough love and being completely honest with whoever is asking about a hand get them much further than trying to be nice about it (I know this personally, b/c I have definitely posted hands that I played horrendous and was told about it). So all in all, I think I'm repeating what other people have said, where people need to be open to different ideas and concepts because thats how we get better, not just trying to stick to a game plan that might not be working.

[chgocubs99 0]

Also, whether you like it or not this game is about respect. And respect comes with putting in the hours and the grind and YES, beating whatever limits you are playing. Respect doesn't come from some punk kid that can put words together to make himself sound smart but for some reason just can't beat those limits that he is so "positive" he knows how to beat.

This is some hardcore ownage

[SlapStick 0]

I learnt nothing.

[David_Nicoson 1]

pssh...he just sat it's a shove if that's his first hand for sure.

I think this issue right here could be a source of the big difference between people's view of the villain's range. I don't see in the HH that he posted, so I'm not sure that "just sat" means he 4-bet his first hand.

[krup24 0]

FWIW, when you disagree with someone that's better than you at poker, ask why. Why do they think a different play is better? They're probably right, they are in fact the better player. If everyone spent less time defending their actions and more time listening and trying to understand they'd be so much better. If you don't care and don't want to get better don't post in a strat forum!In this case, Rdog is staking at least two people that are playing or played $10NL. He's watched them play, he's staking at least another 10 or so that are playing $25nl and $50nl and watches them each probably once a week. And looks at their stats and actually sits and plays in those games for his stakees to watch and learn from. He knows how to play $10nl, and $25nl, and $50nl. But moreover, he's just good at poker and has a good poker mind, so even if all that wasn't true, he'd still be right a much higher percentage of the time than the $10nl and $25nl grinders arguing with him.Think about you as a poker player and why you are at where you are at. Take responsuibility for the level you play at, and give respect to those thatbeat higher levels. They aren't luckier, they are better. And if they are better than you and are posting in the same thread as you, that is an opportunity for you to get better. Use it.

jesus christ not you toojust read dave's posts cause they echo my sentiments

[RDog 0]

I think you missed his point: he was saying that it's you who wants to make it a "big dick" contest. Which seems to be fairly accurate from what I'm seeing. I have no doubt you're making tons of money from poker; good for you. But why do some of the best players (thinking, all the way to the very top level, of Phil Hellmuth) seem so insecure in the way they insist on talking themselves up and putting others down? ::shrug:: I'm a football fan, and I always loved how Barry Sanders would score a jaw-dropping 45-yard TD and then just flip the ball to the ref and trot over to the bench. Modesty and quiet authority is so much more becoming than bristling and blustering and overdoing the alpha male routine.

Go back through this thread and you tell me where it got escalated to the point that it became a personal attack and not a discussion about poker. Then report back.BTW, how do you think Barry Sanders would have reacted if the water boy stood up before the team and told everyone how terrible he was and did it in the way as to be as disrespectful as possible? (Not saying I am Barry Sanders of poker, just using him cause you did)

[tskillz187 0]

jesus christ not you toojust read dave's posts cause they echo my sentiments

What does this even mean? I'm sorry saying to respect. listen to, and thoughtfully question players that are better than you is such a radical idea. I'm "different" now. Sigh, I've typed and retyped a few paragraphs a bunch of times, but I can't type what I want to say right. But this place is a graveyard and good players don't like posting here. I guess all of those players are dicks. That makes more sense than anything else.

[jmbreslin 0]

This is really poor advice/logic. While it is a good idea to not lose money in marginal situations, this isn't the right outlook at all. You are flipping for dead money as well as to set up a more aggressive image to help get favorable situations in the future. If you sit around and only wait for situations where you are a big favorite, you won't get much action when you do have a big hand.

1) I still need someone to show me a calculation showing that flipping for the dead money in this situation is +ev, especially given the numbers posted on page 3 showing that Hero is 40% at best against villain's range. That's not even a flip.2) This is 10NL, where a lot of the metagame stuff is lost on the competition and players move tables quite often. Flipping here to set up a more aggressive image won't have much benefit.3) Just because I might be defending folding PF as not a terrible play doesn't mean I'm a hyper-nit who's going to sit around waiting for AA/KK. At 10NL there are plenty of opportunities to take advantage of bad play and plenty of opportunities to catch people when you're more of a fav.

[Acid_Knight 2]

That's a hell of a limb to climb out on.Oh, my bad dude. I didn't know you've 'beaten higher limits for a very long time.' I guess that makes your every opinion correct on any aspect of poker. Woops. I love people that are massively arrogant douchebags over internet forums because of stupid bullshit, like in this, you have more money than me. Golly jee, I wish I could be you mister. Sorry I disagreed with ya massa. A poor fool like me, what am I thinking questionin' your wisdoms?... Lol. I said over and over it is bad to fold this hand because of how bad 10nl players are. We have a very strong hand against a player who is probably mentally handicapped a fair percentage of the time. Apparently (according to you), we're advocating the same thing. I never said being a nit is a bad thing, but you took the negative connotation and formed it yourself because you took it as meaning, "Hey if you're not being aggressive for no reason, you suck." Yeah, sorry to trouble you in your long day of coaching 25nl. Next time I won't bother to disagree with you about anything, because clearly you're too much of an arrogant hypocrite to even think for a second you're wrong about anything, ever. Best people to debate with IMO. What a ****ing joke. This is why nobody posts in this forum anymore. You run into people that accuse you of getting into pissing contests because you disagree about a particular play and then instantly whip out their stat sheet of rolling up 50nl-100nl 'for a very long time' like it's a 12 inch shlong and drop it on the table. It's not even a forum anymore. It's a, 'I'm right, you're wrong, I have money, you don't play high enough to question me, my results are greater than yours over a higher number of hands so clearly you're not worth my time engaging in debate in any logical way. I'll just be a cynical, condscending douche now. GG' lobby.

You are REALLY out of line here imo. As far as I can see, he's done nothing in this thread to deserve the lack of disrespect that you're giving him. That disrespect isn't because of the player he is, it's because he's posting here. People don't leave the forums because solid winning players give their advice and/or tell other people that they're wrong or need to rethink their lines. People leave the forums because they don't like the environment, and the way that you are swearing and yelling and crap is not good for anyone.I've read most of the posts in this thread. To be fair and neutral all around, Rdog hasn't said much of anything that was proclaiming his aweosmeness or anything of the sort, so I'm not sure where you're really getting that whole thing from. You're the one who's making himself look arrogant and stupid here.I don't know if there's more to this or whatever, but just reading the posts and knowing nothing else about any past situations, it looks like he's offering advice and you're the one who's taking crap personally for whatever reason.__________________________________________Whether you like it or not, you need to defer to the better players. The reasons that they're better vary, but beating a limit consistently, especially a limit that is higher than the one where the hand being discussed takes place, is a mark of a good player and is a reason to listen to them. You don't have to agree with anything that they say, but when someone has as much experience as Rdog does, what he says carries a lot of weight, especially for someone like me. Just because he doesn't play $10 NL, doesn't mean he has no clue what goes on there. Poker is still poker. He even deferred early on that he doesn't play these limits, but his advice was based on play 1 or 2 limits higher.You're saying "shove cause people at $10NL are idiots" and that's fair, but we have no read. A wonderful general rule of poker is to give someone credit the 1st time they do something until you know otherwise because you'll avoid a lot of marginal and/or bad situations for yourself while you make a baseless guess and shove a bunch of chips in the pot. He's saying that we should consider giving some credit to this move because he doesn't think a ton of people 4 bet bluff or 4 bet many worse hands for value. It's fair. It's reasonable. It's based on the (what I can only assume must be) million or more hands of 6m and FR he's played.___________________________________________Basically, just calm the hell down. Give everyone some respect and let's get on with our lives.

[krup24 0]

What does this even mean? I'm sorry saying to respect. listen to, and thoughtfully question players that are better than you is such a radical idea. I'm "different" now. Sigh, I've typed and retyped a few paragraphs a bunch of times, but I can't type what I want to say right. But this place is a graveyard and good players don't like posting here. I guess all of those players are dicks. That makes more sense than anything else.

it means that this is a poker forum where we can have a discussion on a hand. not a gang rape of someones perspective on the hand when his opinions without a doubt have merit. he has "disrespect" because he is taking up the ass from 5 people. as soon as barry sanders and bobby boucher start debating it's like open season on the poor waterboy. little do we know of the waterboy's super hidden talent and sometimes forget the barry sanders fumbled the football from time to time.hope that helps

[Acid_Knight 2]

(Not saying I am Barry Sanders of poker, just using him cause you did)

Lions suck

[The Lobster 0]

... I am Barry Sanders of poker...

You arrogant prick!

[RDog 0]

it means that this is a poker forum where we can have a discussion on a hand. not a gang rape of someones perspective on the hand when his opinions without a doubt have merit. he has "disrespect" because he is taking up the ass from 5 people. as soon as barry sanders and bobby boucher start debating it's like open season on the poor waterboy. little do we know of the waterboy's super hidden talent and sometimes forget the barry sanders fumbled the football from time to time.hope that helps

This might have some merit if you didn't make him out to be some innocent bystander in this whole process and I attacked him. Seems to me it was the other way around. People didn't jump all over him (including myself) until he rightfully deserved it.

[RDog 0]

Lions suck

You arrogant prick!

LOL

[krup24 0]

This might have some merit if you didn't make him out to be some innocent bystander in this whole process and I attacked him. Seems to me it was the other way around. People didn't jump all over him (including myself) until he rightfully deserved it.

he's good people and usually gives good advice and has a good poker mind. i don't agree with his antics either.

[mtdesmoines 3]

2) This is 10NL, where a lot of the metagame stuff is lost on the competition and players move tables quite often. Flipping here to set up a more aggressive image won't have much benefit.

There are a lot of very serious players at $10 NL. Metagame isn't necessarily restricted to just the villain we're in the hand with. OBV 80% of the information we get about a player should be from the way they play against other people. So reverse that.

You are REALLY out of line here imo. As far as I can see, he's done nothing in this thread to deserve the lack of disrespect that you're giving him. That disrespect isn't because of the player he is, it's because he's posting here. People don't leave the forums because solid winning players give their advice and/or tell other people that they're wrong or need to rethink their lines. People leave the forums because they don't like the environment, and the way that you are swearing and yelling and crap is not good for anyone.I've read most of the posts in this thread. To be fair and neutral all around, Rdog hasn't said much of anything that was proclaiming his aweosmeness or anything of the sort, so I'm not sure where you're really getting that whole thing from. You're the one who's making himself look arrogant and stupid here.I don't know if there's more to this or whatever, but just reading the posts and knowing nothing else about any past situations, it looks like he's offering advice and you're the one who's taking crap personally for whatever reason.__________________________________________Whether you like it or not, you need to defer to the better players. The reasons that they're better vary, but beating a limit consistently, especially a limit that is higher than the one where the hand being discussed takes place, is a mark of a good player and is a reason to listen to them. You don't have to agree with anything that they say, but when someone has as much experience as Rdog does, what he says carries a lot of weight, especially for someone like me. Just because he doesn't play $10 NL, doesn't mean he has no clue what goes on there. Poker is still poker. He even deferred early on that he doesn't play these limits, but his advice was based on play 1 or 2 limits higher.You're saying "shove cause people at $10NL are idiots" and that's fair, but we have no read. A wonderful general rule of poker is to give someone credit the 1st time they do something until you know otherwise because you'll avoid a lot of marginal and/or bad situations for yourself while you make a baseless guess and shove a bunch of chips in the pot. He's saying that we should consider giving some credit to this move because he doesn't think a ton of people 4 bet bluff or 4 bet many worse hands for value. It's fair. It's reasonable. It's based on the (what I can only assume must be) million or more hands of 6m and FR he's played.___________________________________________Basically, just calm the hell down. Give everyone some respect and let's get on with our lives.

I was gonna say I'm gonna call Dr. Phil in here. But we have AK showing up instead.

You arrogant prick!

LOL

[David_Nicoson 1]

1) I still need someone to show me a calculation showing that flipping for the dead money in this situation is +ev, especially given the numbers posted on page 3 showing that Hero is 40% at best against villain's range. That's not even a flip.

You'd have to put the villain on a range something like this (or worse).

equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 48.770% 36.38% 12.39% 21182518 7210451.50 { AcKc }Hand 1: 51.230% 38.85% 12.39% 22614915 7210451.50 { JJ+, AJs+, AKo, AdQh }

If you ship preflop and are called, then you traded $8.90 for 48% of a $19 pot, which is $9.27. That's a good trade, so with this range, you should flip.

2) This is 10NL, where a lot of the metagame stuff is lost on the competition and players move tables quite often. Flipping here to set up a more aggressive image won't have much benefit.3) Just because I might be defending folding PF as not a terrible play doesn't mean I'm a hyper-nit who's going to sit around waiting for AA/KK. At 10NL there are plenty of opportunities to take advantage of bad play and plenty of opportunities to catch people when you're more of a fav.

If you're folding because you think you're too much of a dog to his range, that's reasonable. If you're folding because you're waiting for a better spot, I think you should re-examine that thought process.

[RDog 0]

One other thing I wanted to say since a couple of you didn't like Tskillz post. In what profession, hobby, sport, etc are credentials, experience and results not a part of the discussion? If an office assistant and a doctor are having a discussion about an ailment whose side should receive more "validity"? Is the doctor wrong some of the time? Absolutely. Doesn't mean that in general his opinion shouldn't be given much more respect. I don't want to be a part of a world where that isn't true.And for those that didn't like my reaction. Tell me how you would feel if you had been doing your job for quite some time and a 19 year old kid walks in and starts telling you what an idiot you are. How exactly would you react? Well you know what, this is my job. I'm not going to let someone with 1/50th the experience, credentials and results talk to me like I just walked in off the street yesterday to start my job. And if you say you would then you are either a liar or a pussy.

[rdtedm 0]

Holy crap!Anyways, I think that even though this became hostile at some point, there was some good content. I think acid's post on why calling < folding/shoving helped a lot. I don't play cash poker much, so I get to post these hands where I play bad and get good advice -- and for that, thanks.Anyways, villain had QQ and I hit a flush on the turn to win. Sidenote, some months ago in the challenge thread, Mark said something about shipping with AKo and flatting with AKs because you see more flops that you can semibluff at with AKs. Granted, I think that in those cases, AK was the one getting 3-bet and not 4-bet.. Does any of that apply to here at all?

[BeaverStyle 1]

So, I'm reloading onto pokerstars in January. I'm probably gonna beg and beg and beg and beg Rdog or anyone that has shown their skill and experience in the challenge thread to sweat me for like 20 minutes... or anything! I kind of skimmed through this thread, LOL'ing at some pointless attacks and whatnot. However, I did realize that some people approach the game of poker in a completely different way than others, and the ones that got it right, are excelling consistently. Kudos Rdog, you showed class here (and like usually) in every post, and kudos on e-owning when it was necessary. Consider your ass kissed, my nose brown.

[RDog 0]

So, I'm reloading onto pokerstars in January. I'm probably gonna beg and beg and beg and beg Rdog or anyone that has shown their skill and experience in the challenge thread to sweat me for like 20 minutes... or anything! I kind of skimmed through this thread, LOL'ing at some pointless attacks and whatnot. However, I did realize that some people approach the game of poker in a completely different way than others, and the ones that got it right, are excelling consistently. Kudos Rdog, you showed class here (and like usually) in every post, and kudos on e-owning when it was necessary. Consider your ass kissed, my nose brown.

LOL. Pretty sure you earned at least 20 minutes there . PM me when you are getting started.

[krup24 0]

One other thing I wanted to say since a couple of you didn't like Tskillz post. In what profession, hobby, sport, etc are credentials, experience and results not a part of the discussion? If an office assistant and a doctor are having a discussion about an ailment whose side should receive more "validity"? Is the doctor wrong some of the time? Absolutely. Doesn't mean that in general his opinion shouldn't be given much more respect. I don't want to be a part of a world where that isn't true.And for those that didn't like my reaction. Tell me how you would feel if you had been doing your job for quite some time and a 19 year old kid walks in and starts telling you what an idiot you are. How exactly would you react? Well you know what, this is my job. I'm not going to let someone with 1/50th the experience, credentials and results talk to me like I just walked in off the street yesterday to start my job. And if you say you would then you are either a liar or a pussy.

i don't think the two cases are comparable tbh. this isn't a hospital or a football field.i understand you successfully play midstakes and sell hoodies for a living. think it's totally cool that you help people out and take time to post in 10NL threads. i just think that you are arrogant and constantly throw out the experience card. well i'm experienced at low stakes NL. i've beaten $25-100NL for years. i have a full time job and play on eves and wkds and use the money to supplement my income and have no intention of moving up cause the supplement is fine. not saying i could beat ur limits at first but poker is a lifelong learning experience. i just think you could be a great addition to this forum if you drop the holier than though attitude. maybe take a page from mark?i think ur adivce does/can speak for itself

[rdtedm 0]

i don't think the two cases are comparable tbh. this isn't a hospital or a football field.i understand you successfully play midstakes and sell hoodies for a living. think it's totally cool that you help people out and take time to post in 10NL threads. i just think that you are arrogant and constantly throw out the experience card. well i'm experienced at low stakes NL. i've beaten $25-100NL for years. i have a full time job and play on eves and wkds and use the money to supplement my income and have no intention of moving up cause the supplement is fine. not saying i could beat ur limits at first but poker is a lifelong learning experience. i just think you could be a great addition to this forum if you drop the holier than though attitude. maybe take a page from mark?i think ur adivce does/can speak for itself

But then there'd be no hilarious moments when he goes off on someone

[mtdesmoines 3]

So, I'm reloading onto pokerstars in January. I'm probably gonna beg and beg and beg and beg Rdog or anyone that has shown their skill and experience in the challenge thread to sweat me for like 20 minutes... or anything! I kind of skimmed through this thread, LOL'ing at some pointless attacks and whatnot. However, I did realize that some people approach the game of poker in a completely different way than others, and the ones that got it right, are excelling consistently. Kudos Rdog, you showed class here (and like usually) in every post, and kudos on e-owning when it was necessary. Consider your ass kissed, my nose brown.

I hope NoBBiR takes all this in stride. He's kind of on an island but he is a consistent strat poster and I would not like to see him alienated and going away.

[tskillz187 0]

maybe take a page from mark?i think ur adivce does/can speak for itself

I think that's a personality issue. Most people don't like being disrespected, I'd rather have Mikey (syous), Snamuh, and Rdog posting than not posting. Those people post less because of attacks.Mark, Cobalt, and I'm sure I'm missing many others have different personalities where it doesn't bother or affect them either way. But the forum would be better to have all those people than just the super laid back ones.