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First hand, already being up a buy in, I'm sticking him in.
Awesome!!
calling is pretty horrible IMO shove or fold.
This
Well... I said shove him or at least call... fold isn't something I would do here.I don't think shove or fold are the best options... 1) Shove2) Call3) FoldIMO
Calling is very bad. If you want to continue shove preflop.If villian shoved over our 3bet (which is what your drunken 7/2's would do) Id insta call but he 4bet us. Id guess Villians range is very heavily weighted to AA/KK/. I do not play 10nl though so take it at what its worth.
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Calling 4 bets with AK is pretty horrible pretty much always and especially 100 BB's deep. You miss way too many flops and those you hit AND you are ahead, Villain probably won't stack off on. I honestly don't know the pre-flop aggression at 10 NL but I know that at like 25 and 50 people don't stack off very light pre. My advice is that if you aren't going to shove over a 4 bet then don't 3 bet. Nothing wrong with flat calling AK to a single raise.Does make me happy that 2 of my horses pointed that out in this thread though :club:.

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Calling 4 bets with AK is pretty horrible pretty much always and especially 100 BB's deep. You miss way too many flops and those you hit AND you are ahead, Villain probably won't stack off on. I honestly don't know the pre-flop aggression at 10 NL but I know that at like 25 and 50 people don't stack off very light pre. My advice is that if you aren't going to shove over a 4 bet then don't 3 bet. Nothing wrong with flat calling AK to a single raise.Does make me happy that 2 of my horses pointed that out in this thread though :club:.
This is why I posted the hand. I don't know how to play AK preflop well when there's action. Thanks!
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Flipping at best 98% of the time
We're never flipping less than 80% of the time here. It's still a shove. We have them dominated some small percent of the time, and we are dominated some small percentage of the time. Folding this at 10nl preflop is just baddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd. It's so nitty.
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We're never flipping less than 80% of the time here. It's still a shove. We have them dominated some small percent of the time, and we are dominated some small percentage of the time. Folding this at 10nl preflop is just baddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd. It's so nitty.
You say that like being really nitty at the lower levels is a bad thing. Folding AK to a 4 bet is never going to be badddddddddddddddddd. It might not be optimal in some situations but I have seen enough 25 and 50 NL hands to know that at least at those levels, continually getting AK in pre against 100 BB stacks is probably not good. My only assumption is that 10 NL probably plays similar.
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You say that like being really nitty at the lower levels is a bad thing. Folding AK to a 4 bet is never going to be badddddddddddddddddd.
Finally some rational thinking. If you can dominate micro stakes with solid play, why take these kinds of chances? I'm amazed at how many posts I read in this forum that basically amount to, "You could be behind but villain could be drunk and folding is too weak, so just get it all in." There is absolutely no need to be flipping for stacks against this level of competition, unless you just like to gamble.
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Finally some rational thinking. If you can dominate micro stakes with solid play, why take these kinds of chances? I'm amazed at how many posts I read in this forum that basically amount to, "You could be behind but villain could be drunk and folding is too weak, so just get it all in." There is absolutely no need to be flipping for stacks against this level of competition, unless you just like to gamble.
Probably one of the reasons I see soooooo many people moving through the limits with horrible cases of FPS too. It's like being nitty is a 4 letter word. People just start thinking "well, I don't want to be a nit, so I will be........aggressive!!!" which for the most part probably works at lower levels. Then they get to levels where people can actually hand read and just can't figure out why people aren't folding to their blind aggression without any thought as to "what exactly am I repping?". I see it allllllllll the time. It isn't a coincidence that sometimes the hardest players for me to play against are many times those that can't beat that limit and end up moving down. It surely puts you in tough spots and you have to play high variance poker. In the end though..........hard to play against does not always equal winning.In the end, my advice to any of you grinding the lower limits, play solid winning poker and don't try to outplay everyone and win every pot.
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pssh...he just sat it's a shove if that's his first hand for sure.
I think a lot of people are missing this ^^^^^ point. Some people say we need a read. This action on the first hand IS the read. If villain caught AA or KK on first hand vs. our AK, then so be it.
People don't 4bet light at $10NL but a lot of players will get it all in pf with something like AJ or 88 thinking they have the best hand. I think I fold the first time and if I see him 4 bet a couple of times in the next few orbits, try and get it in with him pf a bit lighter than usual.
Why would you wait to get it in lighter than usual when you have this spot with a very strong hand?I read a lot of these replies and I just don't think there's a need to wait. There's little chance he dominates us. If we ARE flipping, it is a SNAPAUTOCALL.
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I think a lot of people are missing this ^^^^^ point. Some people say we need a read. This action on the first hand IS the read. If villain caught AA or KK on first hand vs. our AK, then so be it.Why would you wait to get it in lighter than usual when you have this spot with a very strong hand?I read a lot of these replies and I just don't think there's a need to wait. There's little chance he dominates us. If we ARE flipping, it is a SNAPAUTOCALL.
I highly highly doubt this is true
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I read a lot of these replies and I just don't think there's a need to wait. There's little chance he dominates us. If we ARE flipping, it is a SNAPAUTOCALL.
Please explain why. If I'm playing against competition I can beat, why would I snapcall into a flip for my stack?
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Please explain why. If I'm playing against competition I can beat, why would I snapcall into a flip for my stack?
Because we've already invested enough money into the pot that a flip is +ev for us. But the point is we're only flipping against QQ here, which is hardly ever. NoBB, what in the world gives you the idea that this is QQ and maybe JJ on the very very best of days 80% of the time? I'd say it's the opposite and is in fact Aces and Kings 80% of the time and QQ/AK/JJ the other 20%
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Please explain why. If I'm playing against competition I can beat, why would I snapcall into a flip for my stack?
First, see FAQ.
Common MisconceptionsWait for a better spot.Usually the better spot will be there regardless of what we do in the current hand. While it's possible that some odd metagame concern links the hands, in the vast majority of the cases we should be looking to maximize our expected value in the hand in isolation.
Second, what babylondonks said. Although, I'd rather say "the pot is large enough" rather than say "we've invested enough", so as to not falsely make distinction between the money the hero has contributed to the pot and that the villains have contributed.
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As much as I enjoy sweeping generalisations. You're probably flipping at best 98% of the time here
I should read this as "You're a favorite probably only 2% of the time." Right?98%: flipping or behind. 2%: ahead.I'm 89% sure that's what you meant.
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First, see FAQ.Second, what babylondonks said. Although, I'd rather say "the pot is large enough" rather than say "we've invested enough", so as to not falsely make distinction between the money the hero has contributed to the pot and that the villains have contributed.
The idea about not waiting for a better spot makes perfect sense to me in tournament NLHE, where you can actually run out of time and chips waiting for better spots. We all know that tournament NLHE forces you to take flips, and lots of them. But this isn't tournament poker. If I'm confident that I can outplay the competition at this level of play, and I'm not limited by time and I'm properly bankrolled, I can afford to wait for better spots and I know those better spots will come. Why put my stack on the line when I'm likely flipping when I know there will be opportunities to get my stack in when I'm 60/40, 70/30, or better?
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The argument is that 1) those spots may never come (opponents may leave, game may break, etc) 2) you suffer no external pressures, so you should exploit whatever edges you can 3) the "stack" is a meaningless concept, an artificial construction designed to survive variance. It doesn't matter if you put it at risk so long as it's a small enough portion of your bankroll. You can always reload and continue playing. If you're thinking of "the stack" as something to be protected then you're viewing it as a tournament player does. Typically all of that advice is correct, but you're suggesting a good point often ignored: just because one play is +EV doesn't mean higher EV options don't exist. Now that doesn't apply to this case, because flat calling is clearly terrible, but consider this example; With stacks of 100 BBs, you have AsKs on a Ts6s5c flop and are in position. A terrible player bets half the pot (3 BBs) and you know he has Td9d. He cannot fold top pair as he's been playing HE recreationally for 2 months. Now if we were to shove all-in here, expecting to be called every time, we'd be gambling with an edge. The play would be +EV. But clearly it is preferable to call the 1/2 pot sized bet in position and get him to put his money in when drawing dead. That is, like, way more valuable.

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You're right that the idea of "protecting my stack" is a tournament way of thinking but in cash games I am concerned with protecting my bankroll, and one way to do that is to avoid putting chunks of my bankroll on the line in marginal spots. This hand, preflop, strikes me as being a very marginal spot. Everyone seems to agree that we are flipping at best but yet getting it all in is still the preferred move by almost all the posters in this thread. And the only argument I've seen against folding is that it is too weak. All I'm saying is that there is nothing bad about being "weak" in this spot and folding. There will inevitably be plenty of better ev opportunities against weaker competition.

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I agree, folding here is fine. I don't think it's "weak" because we have limited information on the player, and a normal 4-bet at $10 NL is usually QQ+/AK. The pot's not large enough for all the times he has KK+ (which is more often than many players seem to assume). Note that some of the posters here agree. What desmoines said is that if he KNEW we were flipping, we should call, and about that he's correct. If villain flipped over JJ we would be making a mistake by folding. We'd surrender more equity than we deserve. The problem is, obviously, that we have no such guarantee.overall, I also agree that interpreting behavior as "weak" doesn't mean anything; the object of poker is to maximize profit, minimize losses. Who really cares if a play is perceived as "weak"? I actually saw this on 2+2 this morning, too, where everyone criticized a line because it was too weak, even though some of them admitted that the aggressive line had a negative expectation. Ego has little place in a game of brute probability (has some relevance, in motivating us to play, to improve, to persevere, etc.).

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The idea about not waiting for a better spot makes perfect sense to me in tournament NLHE, where you can actually run out of time and chips waiting for better spots. We all know that tournament NLHE forces you to take flips, and lots of them. But this isn't tournament poker. If I'm confident that I can outplay the competition at this level of play, and I'm not limited by time and I'm properly bankrolled, I can afford to wait for better spots . . .
You can "afford" things that cost you money.
and I know those better spots will come. Why put my stack on the line when I'm likely flipping when I know there will be opportunities to get my stack in when I'm 60/40, 70/30, or better?
So you can make money. Make money on the 50/50 when it's +EV. And make money on the 60/40 and the 70/30. You don't throw away the $1 bills in your wallet because you have $20 bills. Same thing.
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You say that like being really nitty at the lower levels is a bad thing. Folding AK to a 4 bet is never going to be badddddddddddddddddd. It might not be optimal in some situations but I have seen enough 25 and 50 NL hands to know that at least at those levels, continually getting AK in pre against 100 BB stacks is probably not good. My only assumption is that 10 NL probably plays similar.
It's never going to be goooooooooooooooodddddddddd to fold AK to a 4bet at 10nl either. It's not the end of the world if you fold this hand, but it's certainly -EV, and waiting for better spots makes me want to blow my head off. And 25 and 50nl are irrelevant. This is 10nl. This is the bastion for morons who 4bet AJ because they think its funny. Folding AKs to some guy who you don't have reads on, on his first hand at the table, at 10nl, etc. Like seriously. That is just terrible thinking. This is the definition of nittiness. You're really that afraid to flip for a buy-in? You're really that afraid that the guy has AA or KK? Wtf.
Finally some rational thinking. If you can dominate micro stakes with solid play, why take these kinds of chances? I'm amazed at how many posts I read in this forum that basically amount to, "You could be behind but villain could be drunk and folding is too weak, so just get it all in." There is absolutely no need to be flipping for stacks against this level of competition, unless you just like to gamble.
(See below about better spots)
Probably one of the reasons I see soooooo many people moving through the limits with horrible cases of FPS too. It's like being nitty is a 4 letter word. People just start thinking "well, I don't want to be a nit, so I will be........aggressive!!!" which for the most part probably works at lower levels. Then they get to levels where people can actually hand read and just can't figure out why people aren't folding to their blind aggression without any thought as to "what exactly am I repping?". I see it allllllllll the time. It isn't a coincidence that sometimes the hardest players for me to play against are many times those that can't beat that limit and end up moving down. It surely puts you in tough spots and you have to play high variance poker. In the end though..........hard to play against does not always equal winning.In the end, my advice to any of you grinding the lower limits, play solid winning poker and don't try to outplay everyone and win every pot.
What does shoving AKs AIPF have to do with FPS? :icon_eek:We're not trying to outplay everyone, we're trying to put our money in in +EV spots. Who cares about variance of flipping if you're rolled? Are you kidding? :club:
Please explain why. If I'm playing against competition I can beat, why would I snapcall into a flip for my stack?
ASDJGSADKHFEKLGHSDAKLHJKLFJSDLKGJSADGSDA. This isn't a tournament where you're not as willing to always flip away because it could be your last hand. Reloadddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd.You flip for stacks here because it's +EV. We have fold equity, we have no read that says this guy is only doing this with AA and KK, let alone many worse hands and low pairs (which he almost certainly is given that it is 10nl). You don't fold +EV situations just because there are 'better spots' out there somewhere. That is the stupidest logic a NLHE player can have. Who cares if there are 'better situations out there?' When you get to those situations you'll play them also and profit from both in the long run. Someone needs to write a NLHE bible and put this in it as rule numbero uno.
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It's never going to be goooooooooooooooodddddddddd to fold AK to a 4bet at 10nl either. It's not the end of the world if you fold this hand, but it's certainly -EV, and waiting for better spots makes me want to blow my head off. And 25 and 50nl are irrelevant. This is 10nl. This is the bastion for morons who 4bet AJ because they think its funny. Folding AKs to some guy who you don't have reads on, on his first hand at the table, at 10nl, etc. Like seriously. That is just terrible thinking. This is the definition of nittiness. You're really that afraid to flip for a buy-in? You're really that afraid that the guy has AA or KK? Wtf.What does shoving AKs AIPF have to do with FPS? :icon_eek:We're not trying to outplay everyone, we're trying to put our money in in +EV spots. Who cares about variance of flipping if you're rolled? Are you kidding? :club:
LOL @ you. Seriously? I said several times in this very thread that I wasn't sure what the aggression levels pre are at 10 NL. My FPS post was dealing with several references that were made to being nitty and putting a negative connotation on it. LOL @ saying I think terribly. Only things I have said in this thread was that I wasn't sure of the aggression levels pre at 10 NL, that calling is by far the worst option and that being nitty at the lower levels is a good thing. Tell me which of those is terrible thinking. Sounds like you have it all figured out though. Good luck with that.I guess the fact that you are quoting Base Jester in your sig should have been the first tell.
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LOL @ you. Seriously? I said several times in this very thread that I wasn't sure what the aggression levels pre are at 10 NL.
Yes, but at the same time you're talking about 25 and 50nl and your experiences there. As I said, those have nothing to do with this. They're nothing alike. The skill level jump from one to another imo is pretty high. You go from playing brain-dead morons to playing reasonably non-retarded players from 10nl-25nl and then that to aware players at 50nl.
My FPS post was dealing with several references that were made to being nitty and putting a negative connotation on it.
I'm not insulting you. I get called a nit fairly often. Do you really feel like 4-bet shoving AKs vs. folding AKs is a FP? If not, then I don't get what you're saying. That's the reason for the nit remark. I think it is very scared money who folds AKs here for 100bbs, especially if you're advocating the 'better spots' argument.
LOL @ saying I think terribly. Only things I have said in this thread was that I wasn't sure of the aggression levels pre at 10 NL, that calling is by far the worst option and that being nitty at the lower levels is a good thing. Tell me which of those is terrible thinking.
But you're going on the assumption that they're the same as 25 and 50 and they aren't.And being nitty at the lower levels isn't necessarily a good thing. I'm not talking about playing 50/40, but I'm not a fan of going out and playing 9/8 either. And again, the remark about being a nit is based on wanting to fold in this spot just to be conservative. If you never flip, or never put in your money with AK preflop, then you're exploitable. What's the point of raising with it at all if you're never willing to put it in?
Sounds like you have it all figured out though. Good luck with that.
Lol @ condescending remarks because we're disagreeing. Christ, you're acting like I personally attacked you. Did I burn a cross in your yard?
I guess the fact that you are quoting Base Jester in your sig should have been the first tell.
Yeah, because putting something truthfully funny in my quote box is the end of the world. Sorry I disagreed with you buddy. Next time I won't, for fear of your poker forum wrath! :club:
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