Heads Up Thread

[Sheiky 0]

He's lying.

That depends

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Seriously though, assuming full stacks, is it a leak to open raise ATC from the button every time, or does that depend on how passive your opponent is?

[No_Neck 0]

it depends

ya i would say if he was aggro or passive you can do ti with lots of cards, just avoid hands like 93o or hands that will make the second best hand a lot. like K4o(IMHO)

[Sheiky 0]

Seriously though, assuming full stacks, is it a leak to open raise ATC from the button every time, or does that depend on how passive your opponent is?

There's like a 300 post thread on 2+2 about this exact question, some people say it's profitable to raise 100% and do, some people say it isn't and don't, it really doesn't matter at all in the scheme of things.On Pokerroad Haralbos mentioned that he watched Andy Bloch play the $25k HU on Full Tilt and he said that he basicaly never ever folded his BB, Bloch seems to have pretty decent results in HU tourneys so I think it'd be really interesting to hear his reasoning behind that, especialy as he's very maths orientated.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Seriously though, assuming full stacks, is it a leak to open raise ATC from the button every time, or does that depend on how passive your opponent is?

It's variable on how good you are and how good/passive/aggressive they are. The short answer is that no, it's not going to be profitable to open every button at lower stakes, imo.

[No_Neck 0]

It's variable on how good you are and how good/passive/aggressive they are. The short answer is that no, it's not going to be profitable to open every button because at lower stakes, imo.

[ ] last line makes sense(god I am bored)

[Naismith 0]

Seriously though, assuming full stacks, is it a leak to open raise ATC from the button every time, or does that depend on how passive your opponent is?

Your opponents will dictate how often you raise the button. If your opponent is fighting for as many pots as he can get, you're going to want to tighten your raising range. If your opponent just calls preflop and check-folds the flop, raise 200 percent of your hands from the button. If your opponent is constantly check-raising you on flops or 3-betting you, tighten up the range a bit.When I'm deep, I play every button. Oh, also, Jordan taught me a little trick about minraising against annoying uber-call stations which is fun. Essentially, you're raising small and c-betting small, so it costs less to pick up those pots, but then when you actually have something (and no one ever has something heads up), you just continue jamming it after they've declared their flop intention to never, ever, ever fold no matter what. This works really well deep, in my experience, and is really annoying to play against, I think.

[Acid_Knight 2]

[ ] last line makes sense(god I am bored)

Edited. I had more typed in there and I cut it out because I didn't want to make people's heads explode with my awesome strat advice today am kind of lazy.

[Sheiky 0]

Full Tilt Poker Game #6665474217: $2 + $0.15 Heads Up Sit & Go (50662634), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:51:30 ET - 2008/06/02Seat 1: RichardMcBeef90 (1,470)Seat 2: spichot (1,530)RichardMcBeef90 posts the small blind of 15spichot posts the big blind of 30The button is in seat #1*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to RichardMcBeef90 [Js Ts]RichardMcBeef90 raises to 90spichot calls 60*** FLOP *** [Kd 8h 7h]spichot bets 30RichardMcBeef90 has 15 seconds left to actRichardMcBeef90 calls 30*** TURN *** [Kd 8h 7h] [3s]spichot bets 120RichardMcBeef90 has 15 seconds left to actRichardMcBeef90 calls 120*** RIVER *** [Kd 8h 7h 3s] [8d]spichot bets 270RichardMcBeef90 raises to 1,230, and is all inspichot foldsUncalled bet of 960 returned to RichardMcBeef90RichardMcBeef90 mucksRichardMcBeef90 wins the pot (1,020)*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 1,020 | Rake 0Board: [Kd 8h 7h 3s 8d]Seat 1: RichardMcBeef90 (small blind) collected (1,020), muckedSeat 2: spichot (big blind) folded on the River

[NoBBiR 0]

More info from all HU winners please.

More Manu.

Full Tilt Poker Game #6665474217: $2 + $0.15 Heads Up Sit & Go (50662634), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:51:30 ET - 2008/06/02Seat 1: RichardMcBeef90 (1,470)Seat 2: spichot (1,530)RichardMcBeef90 posts the small blind of 15spichot posts the big blind of 30The button is in seat #1*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to RichardMcBeef90 [Js Ts]RichardMcBeef90 raises to 90spichot calls 60*** FLOP *** [Kd 8h 7h]spichot bets 30RichardMcBeef90 has 15 seconds left to actRichardMcBeef90 calls 30*** TURN *** [Kd 8h 7h] [3s]spichot bets 120RichardMcBeef90 has 15 seconds left to actRichardMcBeef90 calls 120*** RIVER *** [Kd 8h 7h 3s] [8d]spichot bets 270RichardMcBeef90 raises to 1,230, and is all inspichot foldsUncalled bet of 960 returned to RichardMcBeef90RichardMcBeef90 mucksRichardMcBeef90 wins the pot (1,020)*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 1,020 | Rake 0Board: [Kd 8h 7h 3s 8d]Seat 1: RichardMcBeef90 (small blind) collected (1,020), muckedSeat 2: spichot (big blind) folded on the River

Raise his flop bet, obv.

[ROBBBIGG 0]

Full Tilt Poker Game #6665474217: $2 + $0.15 Heads Up Sit & Go (50662634), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:51:30 ET - 2008/06/02Seat 1: RichardMcBeef90 (1,470)Seat 2: spichot (1,530)RichardMcBeef90 posts the small blind of 15spichot posts the big blind of 30The button is in seat #1*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to RichardMcBeef90 [Js Ts]RichardMcBeef90 raises to 90spichot calls 60*** FLOP *** [Kd 8h 7h]spichot bets 30RichardMcBeef90 has 15 seconds left to actRichardMcBeef90 calls 30*** TURN *** [Kd 8h 7h] [3s]spichot bets 120RichardMcBeef90 has 15 seconds left to actRichardMcBeef90 calls 120*** RIVER *** [Kd 8h 7h 3s] [8d]spichot bets 270RichardMcBeef90 raises to 1,230, and is all inspichot foldsUncalled bet of 960 returned to RichardMcBeef90RichardMcBeef90 mucksRichardMcBeef90 wins the pot (1,020)*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 1,020 | Rake 0Board: [Kd 8h 7h 3s 8d]Seat 1: RichardMcBeef90 (small blind) collected (1,020), muckedSeat 2: spichot (big blind) folded on the River

why did you do that stuff

[Sheiky 0]

More Manu.Raise his flop bet, obv.

First hand so I head not much idea what his leading range was, i didn't want to get called by a pair of 8s of whatever when calling the flop/betting on late streets looks stronger imo, + it was a $2 tourney so i was experiementing with new lines

why did you do that stuff

Flop bet - Normaly weak, could be strong/medium strength handTurn - I think that was a pretty weak bet actual;y, and from floating in other situations i always seem to get double barreled because it's obvious i can call the flop min bet with basically anything so I called because i can still do something on the riverRiver - Super weak bet, i think he's rarely calling a shove here, so i shove

[ROBBBIGG 0]

First hand so I head not much idea what his leading range was, i didn't want to get called by a pair of 8s of whatever when calling the flop/betting on late streets looks stronger imo, + it was a $2 tourney so i was experiementing with new linesFlop bet - Normaly weak, could be strong/medium strength handTurn - I think that was a pretty weak bet actual;y, and from floating in other situations i always seem to get double barreled because it's obvious i can call the flop min bet with basically anything so I called because i can still do something on the riverRiver - Super weak bet, i think he's rarely calling a shove here, so i shove

usually first hand isn't the best time to try anything sick, esp in 2 dollar hu sngs, where you get called with a lot of hands. i've probably pulled something similar, shoving when i think villain can't call unless he's got a monster, but a. you prob want some reads and b. calling down and then shoving looks pretty odd. i prob would raise the flop with my gutter or call and raise the turn, and give up if called without hitting. i guess you're repping trips or a flush, but usually hu players raise with their flush draws, so you're sorta repping a pretty small range (called down with mp and spiked trips). you're also not getting a ton of value with your bluff. it'll probably be a lot cheaper to raise the flop or call and raise the turn than it is to shove all in on a value bet or three barrel.

[cwik 0]

First hand so I head not much idea what his leading range was, i didn't want to get called by a pair of 8s of whatever when calling the flop/betting on late streets looks stronger imo, + it was a $2 tourney so i was experiementing with new linesFlop bet - Normaly weak, could be strong/medium strength handTurn - I think that was a pretty weak bet actual;y, and from floating in other situations i always seem to get double barreled because it's obvious i can call the flop min bet with basically anything so I called because i can still do something on the riverRiver - Super weak bet, i think he's rarely calling a shove here, so i shove

LOL, that hand is a HUGE spew.raise flop. If not fold turn. If not, I don't hate river line except it is the first hand of a $2 sng... which I am certian makes it a -EV play.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Full Tilt Poker Game #6665474217: $2 + $0.15 Heads Up Sit & Go (50662634), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:51:30 ET - 2008/06/02Seat 1: RichardMcBeef90 (1,470)Seat 2: spichot (1,530)RichardMcBeef90 posts the small blind of 15spichot posts the big blind of 30The button is in seat #1*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to RichardMcBeef90 [Js Ts]RichardMcBeef90 raises to 90spichot calls 60*** FLOP *** [Kd 8h 7h]spichot bets 30RichardMcBeef90 has 15 seconds left to actRichardMcBeef90 calls 30*** TURN *** [Kd 8h 7h] [3s]spichot bets 120RichardMcBeef90 has 15 seconds left to actRichardMcBeef90 calls 120*** RIVER *** [Kd 8h 7h 3s] [8d]spichot bets 270RichardMcBeef90 raises to 1,230, and is all inspichot foldsUncalled bet of 960 returned to RichardMcBeef90RichardMcBeef90 mucksRichardMcBeef90 wins the pot (1,020)*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 1,020 | Rake 0Board: [Kd 8h 7h 3s 8d]Seat 1: RichardMcBeef90 (small blind) collected (1,020), muckedSeat 2: spichot (big blind) folded on the River

Raise the flop most of the time in position. I don't really love the naked float on the two tone board unless you have a better handle on what he donks with. On the turn, raise or fold. Calling is bad for so many reasons inlcuding the fact that it's slightly more likely he has a real hand since he's betting twice, you have no hand, and you look weak so he's likely to bluff the river with his entire range meaning that you have to put your stack at risk to make a bluff.When you get to the river, you're shoving and you're repping basically nothing since there's like no way you don't raise the flop/turn with KK and you prob raise the flop with 8x. Getting fancy is fine, but have a reason to do it. Randomly double floating donks in $2 sngs is probably never gonna be profitable. The whole idea of this hand is spewriffic.Edit: I just noticed the flop is monotone. For god's sake fold the flop or raise him. It's like raising>folding>calling AINEC. The turn is about the same ranking. Calling is like the worst option by far on each street.

[Sheiky 0]

Not sure why i'm even debating a hand that was posted for pure novelty value, but ok...Flop: with a gutshot and possible pair outs against a min bet, I don't think calling's bad at all, sure I could raise the flop, but it's not mandatory and the reason i'm playing a $2 turbo is to not play every hand as i normaly do. It may not be the highest EV line, but in a HU match there's virtualy no way to evaluate such a thing and I think calling is a perfectly reasonable playTurn: I normaly just fold here and that's probably best, i admit, but it occured to me that a lot of players are just going to insta bet that turn whatever it is because my flop calling range is so wide, so i decided to continue with the hand. I could have raised the turn yeh, but i could also flat the turn and evaluate his river bet/check and decide if he acctualy had what he was representing which could possibly save me money if he bets something on the river that acctualy looks like he has a king.River: He insta bet weak, i deduced that there was a high probability of him folding if I shoved, so i shoved, and he folded. I'm not going to argue conclusively that it's 100% the best option as A) I don't neccesarily think it is and B) HU is so dependent that there's no 100% best line anyway, but even though it looks weird I don't it's that horrible.

[Sheiky 0]

Raise the flop most of the time in position. I don't really love the naked float on the two tone board unless you have a better handle on what he donks with. On the turn, raise or fold. Calling is bad for so many reasons inlcuding the fact that it's slightly more likely he has a real hand since he's betting twice, you have no hand, and you look weak so he's likely to bluff the river with his entire range meaning that you have to put your stack at risk to make a bluff.When you get to the river, you're shoving and you're repping basically nothing since there's like no way you don't raise the flop/turn with KK and you prob raise the flop with 8x. Getting fancy is fine, but have a reason to do it. Randomly double floating donks in $2 sngs is probably never gonna be profitable. The whole idea of this hand is spewriffic.Edit: I just noticed the flop is monotone. For god's sake fold the flop or raise him. It's like raising>folding>calling AINEC. The turn is about the same ranking. Calling is like the worst option by far on each street.

Reason being - He bet weak and i really felt he'd fold, i realise that i'm repping nothing, but against someone who can't hand read, I don't think that matters a ton.

[ROBBBIGG 0]

it's actually really really bad. you called down with little equity and then made a shove that either made you a small amount of chips or cost you your full stack. you didn't really rep much either, so your bluff doesn't make sense.i just don't get posting hands played poorly on a forum where people discuss how hands are played and then when winning higher stakes players explain why it's bad responding, saying "nah i had a read and it's all subjective so shhh"

[Acid_Knight 2]

Not sure why i'm even debating a hand that was posted for pure novelty value, but ok...Flop: with a gutshot and possible pair outs against a min bet, I don't think calling's bad at all, sure I could raise the flop, but it's not mandatory and the reason i'm playing a $2 turbo is to not play every hand as i normaly do. It may not be the highest EV line, but in a HU match there's virtualy no way to evaluate such a thing and I think calling is a perfectly reasonable playTurn: I normaly just fold here and that's probably best, i admit, but it occured to me that a lot of players are just going to insta bet that turn whatever it is because my flop calling range is so wide, so i decided to continue with the hand. I could have raised the turn yeh, but i could also flat the turn and evaluate his river bet/check and decide if he acctualy had what he was representing which could possibly save me money if he bets something on the river that acctualy looks like he has a king.River: He insta bet weak, i deduced that there was a high probability of him folding if I shoved, so i shoved, and he folded. I'm not going to argue conclusively that it's 100% the best option as A) I don't neccesarily think it is and B) HU is so dependent that there's no 100% best line anyway, but even though it looks weird I don't it's that horrible.

You posted a hand where you probably misplayed every postflop street, so we're critiquing.On a suited board where you have none of that suit, you should probably never pay to draw to straights, especially gutshots, especially to a player who's donking into you. Realize that your hand has virtually no value and bluff raise or fold.On the turn, give up please. You're not really repping much of anything by calling since his bets are so small and if you did flop a flush, you'd be raising the turn for sure since you NEED to get value somewhere. You can't beat top pair. You have virtually no draws. You could be drawing dead. There is only the slightest of reasonable arguments to be made for floating the flop, but none of those exist on the turn.The river - he looks weak, so you shove. You're repping nothing, but he didn't make a hand, so he folds.The thing that you're missing in all of this is that you know nothing about him. Yes, he knows nothing about you either, but I'm assuming that in a $2 sng you're gonna be the superior player and you're the one who's supposed to be thinking of these things, and not him. You should be running elaborate bluffs like this about every 18 years and it should be against a player who you know is taking this line with _________ and if X falls on the turn, he's gonna ____________ and if Y falls on the turn he's gonna ______________ and if you call he's gonna _____________ and if you raise, he's gonna __________. You don't know any of these things about him. I understand that it's a $2 sng and the $$ is unimportant, but the reality is that a line this should virtually never ever be taken, so there's not much use in experimenting with it.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Reason being - He bet weak and i really felt he'd fold, i realise that i'm repping nothing, but against someone who can't hand read, I don't think that matters a ton.

Ok, so he can't read hands. So you're gonna try and make the best hand with a naked gutshot on a monotone flop in order to beat him?Also, if you think he's weak and will fold raise the flop. If you still think he's weak on the turn, raise the turn. Calling in these spots makes no sense since you have like zero equity in this pot vs any range he's gonna show up with basically.

[Sheiky 0]

it's actually really really bad. you called down with little equity and then made a shove that either made you a small amount of chips or cost you your full stack. you didn't really rep much either, so your bluff doesn't make sense.i just don't get posting hands played poorly on a forum where people discuss how hands are played and then when winning higher stakes players explain why it's bad responding, saying "nah i had a read and it's all subjective so shhh"

There's like a billion bad beat/interesting/badly played hands that get posted on these forums every month that are there solely for entertainment/whining/amusement purposes and not to so people can ask how to play a hand differently.I played a hand badly, i think it's cool cause i bluffed someone succesfuly which I never ever do normaly so i look for a thread to post it in, hey there's the HU thread! I'l post it there. If i really wanted strategy advice on the hand I would probably have played it in a more authodox manner and asked when i posted it what part of the hand i wanted advice on.As it is people commented, I have no problem with that as it's a discussion forum and whatnot, i'll coment back and try to defend the seemingly indefensible because i feel like it, and - Don't hate me - don't think it's as bad as everyone says it is and even if it is because i'm stubborn it creates good discussion anyway. I don't see where in my replies i said anything relating to 'nah i had a read and it's all subjective so shhhhhh' which given that it's HU is more than a half valid point anyway.And you guys are all forgetting that the fact he folded which makes me A) Right B ) You all wrong and C) The greatest No Limit texas hold em HU player around.

[Acid_Knight 2]

There's like a billion bad beat/interesting/badly played hands that get posted on these forums every month that are there solely for entertainment/whining/amusement purposes and not to so people can ask how to play a hand differently.I played a hand badly, i think it's cool cause i bluffed someone succesfuly which I never ever do normaly so i look for a thread to post it in, hey there's the HU thread! I'l post it there. If i really wanted strategy advice on the hand I would probably have played it in a more authodox manner and asked when i posted it what part of the hand i wanted advice on.As it is people commented, I have no problem with that as it's a discussion forum and whatnot, i'll coment back and try to defend the seemingly indefensible because i feel like it, and - Don't hate me - don't think it's as bad as everyone says it is and even if it is because i'm stubborn it creates good discussion anyway. I don't see where in my replies i said anything relating to 'nah i had a read and it's all subjective so shhhhhh' which given that it's HU is more than a half valid point anyway.And you guys are all forgetting that the fact he folded which makes me A) Right B ) You all wrong and C) The greatest No Limit texas hold em HU player around.

FWIW, the only place you get to post hands and not expect criticism is in the BBF. This thread is specifically a strat thread (per Jay's OP) in a strat forum, so that's what we're doing here.

[Sheiky 0]

The thing that you're missing in all of this is that you know nothing about him. Yes, he knows nothing about you either, but I'm assuming that in a $2 sng you're gonna be the superior player and you're the one who's supposed to be thinking of these things, and not him. You should be running elaborate bluffs like this about every 18 years and it should be against a player who you know is taking this line with _________ and if X falls on the turn, he's gonna ____________ and if Y falls on the turn he's gonna ______________ and if you call he's gonna _____________ and if you raise, he's gonna __________. You don't know any of these things about him. I understand that it's a $2 sng and the $$ is unimportant, but the reality is that a line this should virtually never ever be taken, so there's not much use in experimenting with it.

Why thank you!And this is literaly the once in 18 years i bluff somebody, i'm like the nittiest post flop player ever and I rarely make any kind of non standard play .

Ok, so he can't read hands. So you're gonna try and make the best hand with a naked gutshot on a monotone flop in order to beat him?Also, if you think he's weak and will fold raise the flop. If you still think he's weak on the turn, raise the turn. Calling in these spots makes no sense since you have like zero equity in this pot vs any range he's gonna show up with basically.

FWIW flop is diamond diamond heart

[Acid_Knight 2]

FWIW flop is diamond diamond heart

GAH, read it right the first time. It changes very little about what I said except it makes the flop float marginally better. The turn is still just as bad

[Acid_Knight 2]

I rarely make any kind of non standard play .

It really does sound like you're overly defensive. It's just a bad play. If you posted it and said "LOL, I play so bad" which is something I hear from Jay once a day (I try and keep up with him) then I doubt we'd really be critiquing. The fact is that it's not non-standard, it's just bad. There's plenty of room to be creative. If you wanted to minraise his flop lead. Minraise his turn lead and then shove the river, it'd be better. If you wanted to float the flop, minraise the turn and bet the river, it'd be better. If you wanted to raise his flop bet, CIB on the turn and shove over his river lead, it'd be better. Play with those lines. Don't play with ones that involve you calling multiple streets with little or no equity and then shoving your stack into the pot in a spot where you'll never have a credible hand to rep.That's all .