The Hi-lo(w) Content Thread

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

took a bit of a different line here. wasn't expecting the result I got when he called on the river. Anyone like it? I'm sure Antistuff will have something to say about this one PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.05 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)UTG ($3.46)MP ($6.59)Button ($1.88)SB ($11.24)Hero ($6.16)Preflop: Hero is BB with , , , . UTG calls $0.05, MP raises to $0.15, Button calls $0.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.10, UTG calls $0.10.Flop: ($0.62) , , (4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets $0.15, Button raises to $0.4, Hero calls $0.40, UTG folds, MP folds.Turn: ($1.57) (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $0.2, Hero calls $0.20.River: ($1.97) (2 players)Hero bets $1.92, Button calls $1.13 (All-In).Final Pot: $4.23Results in white below: Hero has Kh Ad Qc 3s (Low: 6, 4, 3, 2, A | High: one pair, sixes). Button has Jd Qh As 5c (Low: 6, 5, 4, 2, A | High: one pair, sixes). Outcome: Hero wins $5.01.

[jmbreslin 0]

I don't think there is any point at all in making that river bet since you have basically zero chance at the high and a chance of getting quartered on the low. But clearly I'm giving these players waaaaayyyyy to much credit. Donk leads at this level often indicate a low hand or nut low draw, but still...the chance of you winning that high are so, so slim. Maybe the lesson is that you should always pot your nut lows on the river because idiots like this come along who will call with a worse low and even less of a high hand than yours.These are the stakes I play too, and hands like this make me wonder if I should be driving every hand because people will call down with such junk. But then I start overplaying hands, losing money, and revert back to more careful play.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

My thought at the time was he was scared of that turn card with his bet size and the way he had played hands before it just looked to me like he was weak. I wasn't betting for value on the end I was trying to fold him out.(although if he did have a hand like 35xx not sure he could fold it anyway )

[antistuff 0]

Maybe the lesson is that you should always pot your nut lows on the river because idiots like this come along who will call with a worse low and even less of a high hand than yours.

you're close. ----------i think you have the right idea in that hand. as you move up this is exactly how you beat nitty players, by using a lock on one side to bluff them off the other side in a pot that shouldn't have ever gotten as big as it did. against the kind of person who is going to make the call that they did, i don't like it. the result you got is very rare. most of the time you are going to split or get 1/4. now if you had 2344 and the board was a68jq....(bad players love to call down their whole stack with like 24xx there).

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

i think you have the right idea in that hand. as you move up this is exactly how you beat nitty players, by using a lock on one side to bluff them off the other side in a pot that shouldn't have ever gotten as big as it did. against the kind of person who is going to make the call that they did, i don't like it. the result you got is very rare. most of the time you are going to split or get 1/4. now if you had 2344 and the board was a68jq....(bad players love to call down their whole stack with like 24xx there).

This is exactly what I was trying to do

[jmbreslin 0]

But as he suggested in the rest of his post, the move is destined to fail at these stakes because these players aren't nitty - it's much more difficult to bluff players off one side of the pot when you have only the other side because they will call down so widely.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

But as he suggested in the rest of his post, the move is destined to fail at these stakes because these players aren't nitty - it's much more difficult to bluff players off one side of the pot when you have only the other side because they will call down so widely.

It works for me fairly often

[jmbreslin 0]

I haven't been playing very long and don't have a huge number of hands under my belt, but my experience is that most players at this level aren't quite as bad as the guy in the hand you posted there. That's pretty extreme badness. Perhaps either you've gotten very lucky in the opposition you've faced or I've gotten unlucky in the opposition I've faced. Or maybe I just haven't given myself enough opportunity to benefit from this kind of badness because I've been playing too straightforwardly.That being said, I also don't think you need to make these kinds of moves at these stakes. If you're patient enough, you can be very profitable by focusing on good hand selection and nailing people when they overvalue mediocre hands.

[jmbreslin 0]

L-O-freakin-LPokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.05 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)CO ($5.80)Button ($3.33)SB ($5.93)BB ($5.18)UTG ($9.93)Hero ($3.93)MP2 ($14.13)Preflop: Hero is MP1 with , , , . 1 fold, Hero calls $0.05, MP2 calls $0.05, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: ($0.20) , , (4 players)SB bets $0.05, BB raises to $0.1, Hero raises to $0.55, MP2 folds, SB calls $0.50, BB calls $0.45.Turn: ($1.85) (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1.8, SB calls $1.80, BB calls $1.80.River: ($7.25) (3 players)SB bets $3.53 (All-In), BB folds, Hero calls $1.53 (All-In).Final Pot: $10.31Results:Hero has 8c Qd Kc Kh (High: full house, kings full of fives). SB has Ah 3s 2s 9s (High: one pair, fives). Outcome: Hero wins $10.31.

[antistuff 0]

L-O-freakin-LPokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.05 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)CO ($5.80)Button ($3.33)SB ($5.93)BB ($5.18)UTG ($9.93)Hero ($3.93)MP2 ($14.13)Preflop: Hero is MP1 with , , , . 1 fold, Hero calls $0.05, MP2 calls $0.05, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: ($0.20) , , (4 players)SB bets $0.05, BB raises to $0.1, Hero raises to $0.55, MP2 folds, SB calls $0.50, BB calls $0.45.Turn: ($1.85) (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1.8, SB calls $1.80, BB calls $1.80.River: ($7.25) (3 players)SB bets $3.53 (All-In), BB folds, Hero calls $1.53 (All-In).Final Pot: $10.31Results:Hero has 8c Qd Kc Kh (High: full house, kings full of fives). SB has Ah 3s 2s 9s (High: one pair, fives). Outcome: Hero wins $10.31.

his play here is fine. for 3.50 in a 7.25 pot you can't call that river often enough.edit: im assuming you play like a normal TAG that i encounter.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with , , , . 1 fold, Hero calls $0.05, MP2 calls $0.05, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

from MP I would fold this pre. Is that too nitty?

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

his play here is fine. for 3.50 in a 7.25 pot you can't call that river often enough.edit: im assuming you play like a normal TAG that i encounter.

I think this play is horrible with two people in the pot behind you IMHO. Although I have made that kind of play several times if it's heads up

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

I haven't been playing very long and don't have a huge number of hands under my belt, but my experience is that most players at this level aren't quite as bad as the guy in the hand you posted there. That's pretty extreme badness. Perhaps either you've gotten very lucky in the opposition you've faced or I've gotten unlucky in the opposition I've faced. Or maybe I just haven't given myself enough opportunity to benefit from this kind of badness because I've been playing too straightforwardly.That being said, I also don't think you need to make these kinds of moves at these stakes. If you're patient enough, you can be very profitable by focusing on good hand selection and nailing people when they overvalue mediocre hands.

I agree about people not being as bad as that guy, but I think that type of play is profitable at any of the stakes I've played as long as the game is PL or NL. However in the hand I posted I didn't really like the board pairing on the end as it completed just about any high hand he could have, but when you smooth call with the nut lo behind someone who is driving the pot (with what you perceive to be a high hand) when a scare card comes on the end and you push they fold a lot. If they don't sometimes you get lucky as I did and scoop other times you get quartered/half. To me it's worth the risk for the amount of times you take it down uncontested

[jmbreslin 0]

his play here is fine. for 3.50 in a 7.25 pot you can't call that river often enough.edit: im assuming you play like a normal TAG that i encounter.

What did he think I was playing when I pot-raised that flop and then potted the turn? The river eliminates the possibility of a low and fills up any set, which is my most likely holding the way I played it. He still has two opponents on the river, and one of them (me) only has $1.50 left in front of him. Did he actually think he was going to bluff both of us off that pot?And, yes, I do play a fairly TAG game. I'm still a beginner and want to build my confidence before lagging up.

[jmbreslin 0]

I agree about people not being as bad as that guy, but I think that type of play is profitable at any of the stakes I've played as long as the game is PL or NL. However in the hand I posted I didn't really like the board pairing on the end as it completed just about any high hand he could have, but when you smooth call with the nut lo behind someone who is driving the pot (with what you perceive to be a high hand) when a scare card comes on the end and you push they fold a lot. If they don't sometimes you get lucky as I did and scoop other times you get quartered/half. To me it's worth the risk for the amount of times you take it down uncontested

Maybe you're right about this - quartering probably doesn't happen nearly as often as I fear it happening, so the times it does happen may easily be offset by the times you scoop or take it down uncontested.

[jmbreslin 0]

from MP I would fold this pre. Is that too nitty?

It's a short table and when there isn't a whole lot of PF action I like to limp in with high-only hands with good potential. This is a hand that is very easy to throw away postflop, but has good potential if it hits (set of K's, NFD if Acxc flops, nut straight potential).

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

yeah, I guess it would depend on the tables preflop tendencies. I do the same with my high hands and if the 8 were a 10 J or A I wouldn't think twice about limping in. If I was pretty sure no one wouldn't raise behind me maybe I'd limp in here too :icon_confused:P.S. nice hand BTW B)

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

awwwwwwww yeah........... back in action after a short break PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Button ($1.95)SB ($5.95)BB ($5.01)Hero ($5.18)MP ($6.57)CO ($4.13)Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2, 9, A, 4. Hero raises to $0.1, MP calls $0.10, 1 fold, Button raises to $0.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.15, MP calls $0.15.Flop: ($0.82) J, 3, A(3 players)Hero checks, MP checks, Button bets $0.25, Hero raises to $0.75, MP calls $0.75, Button calls $0.50.Turn: ($3.07) 7(3 players)Hero bets $1.55, MP calls $1.55, Button calls $0.95 (All-In).River: ($7.12) 5(3 players, 1 all-in)Hero bets $2.63 (All-In), MP calls $2.63.Final Pot: $12.38Results in white below: Hero has 2d 9h Ad 4s (Low: 5, 4, 3, 2, A | High: straight, five high). MP has Th As 5h Ts (High: two pair, aces and fives). Button has 4c Qd 6h Qs (Low: 6, 5, 4, 3, A | High: straight, seven high). Outcome: Hero wins $9.42. Button wins $2.96.

[jmbreslin 0]

What's with the PF minraise?And what's with the small turn bet?But wow, those players are terrible.

[antistuff 0]

What's with the PF minraise?And what's with the small turn bet?But wow, those players are terrible.

i like min raising preflop. it makes it easier to cut deeper into the stacks of passive players who won't raise but will call too much at very little cost. if im at a table with 200bb and there are three bad players to my right who cover me a min raise or a little more is not a bad idea every time they limp in and i have a hand i want to play.it also gets me free cards on the flop. they all check to the raiser, like im gonna make daring and bold c-bets in a four way min raised pot. and lastly it keeps pots multiway. the new style that this game is being played in is much like nlhe. raise preflop in position and hammer away. this is dumb. we want to create huge multiway pots with hands that will hit big draws on the flop to scoop big pots.

[antistuff 0]

its only $4 more dollars......Full Tilt Poker Game #6282089747: Table Fitzgerald - $0.50/$1 - Pot Limit Omaha H/L - 7:04:32 ET - 2008/05/04Seat 1: volcomrider182 ($244.55)Seat 2: antistuff ($87.50)Seat 3: chiseler1 ($20.25)Seat 4: DattyP ($40.30)Seat 5: richlet ($8.45)Seat 6: GateauOrMort ($128.40), is sitting outSeat 7: jacksonmovers27 ($31.60)Seat 8: maennje ($71)Seat 9: Go_Hard_Go_Lo ($100.60)volcomrider182 posts the small blind of $0.50antistuff posts the big blind of $1The button is in seat #9*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to antistuff [Ks 7d 4d Kc]chiseler1 calls $1DattyP foldsrichlet foldsjacksonmovers27 calls $1maennje calls $1Go_Hard_Go_Lo foldsvolcomrider182 calls $0.50antistuff checks*** FLOP *** [Kd 4h Jd]volcomrider182 checksantistuff checkschiseler1 checksjacksonmovers27 bets $2.50maennje foldsvolcomrider182 foldsantistuff raises to $12.50chiseler1 foldsjacksonmovers27 calls $10*** TURN *** [Kd 4h Jd] [Kh]antistuff checksrichlet adds $13jacksonmovers27 bets $15antistuff calls $15*** RIVER *** [Kd 4h Jd Kh] [4c]antistuff bets $4jacksonmovers27 has 15 seconds left to actjacksonmovers27 calls $3.10, and is all inUncalled bet of $0.90 returned to antistuff*** SHOW DOWN ***antistuff shows [Ks 7d 4d Kc] four of a kind, Kings, for highjacksonmovers27 mucksantistuff wins the pot ($63.20) with four of a kind, Kingsjacksonmovers27 is sitting outNo low hand qualified*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $66.20 | Rake $3Board: [Kd 4h Jd Kh 4c]Seat 1: volcomrider182 (small blind) folded on the FlopSeat 2: antistuff (big blind) showed [Ks 7d 4d Kc] and won ($63.20) with HI: four of a kind, KingsSeat 3: chiseler1 folded on the FlopSeat 4: DattyP didn't bet (folded)Seat 5: richlet didn't bet (folded)Seat 6: GateauOrMort is sitting outSeat 7: jacksonmovers27 mucked [8h 9h 3d Qh] - HI: a pair of KingsSeat 8: maennje folded on the FlopSeat 9: Go_Hard_Go_Lo (button) didn't bet (folded)

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

What's with the PF minraise?And what's with the small turn bet?But wow, those players are terrible.

yeah pf min raise just to get some more $ in potturn bet just big enough to start to build a side potand yes they are!!!!!!

[jmbreslin 0]

Would you also minraise a high only hand, like AAKJ double-suited, or pot-raise to narrow the field? If the latter, don't you risk giving away your hand by using different PF raises?

[antistuff 0]

Would you also minraise a high only hand, like AAKJ double-suited, or pot-raise to narrow the field? If the latter, don't you risk giving away your hand by using different PF raises?

to be completely honest, i don't worry about giving away my hand with how i size my preflop raises. i have yet to come across a player who seems to have picked up on it. if/when that happens ill find a way to mix it up. one thing that might help is that im not min raising players i consider to be good too often.

[jmbreslin 0]

Which would certainly cover most of the field at my .02-.05 stakes...