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We're in a 100bb game.The only more favorable boards we don't have a set on are like 2-2-6-9 rainbow... not too many of themIf you fold here, honestly, you're saying to wait to hit a set with pairs unless you have AA/KK, because the bet presented here is like the weakest bet possible, and the people advocating folding I know to be habitual C-bettors. So if you three bet them preflop, and c-bet, but fold to any turn bet... just think about it here... you're creating a big pot you're not playing without a set, so you may as well just keep the pot small and play them passively, because all you're looking to do with the three bet and c-bet is pick up the pot... and you're risking a lot more of your own chips in relation to what you can win by taking this line.As far as the hand goes...I'm not disagreeing that people would play set hands or A-A / K-K this way, or that it's probably the best way to approach their hand if that's what they're holding. It just drives me bonkers to no only assume an unknown is holding a monster, but to assume he plays it perfectly. It's a rare enough occurrence that we're going to run into a brick wall with Q-Q at six max on a favorable board, but to have it played well by an unknown? Surely you don't think the majority of players are awesome players... and if you do then I guess that's why we don't see eye to eye. I mean it seems when you guys approach hands you put yourselves in the villain's shoes and are blind to anything you wouldn't play in such a manner... but I digress... the point is, when the combination of cards a villain can be holding aren't in huge disporpotions favoring one move over the other, you've really got to look at how often a player will play those hands in such a manner... and I just don't see the majority of players playing hands that beat us this way, but I do see the majority of players being capable of making blocking bets, and being capable of getting involved preflop with a marginal holding, especially since the villain has almost every right to believe that UTG is coming along for the ride in this preflop situation, and that this isn't a full ring game.Wow that was a long post... it'll prolly be ignored especially since *I* posted it lmfao.
I think in general you need to give unknowns credit until they prove themselves otherwise. Your saying it is possible that this players range is bigger then we are giving him credit for, which might be true, but if you are never willing to lay down an overpair, you are a calling station. You have to realize that there is really not much difference of staking off here with an overpair or TP/TK and without reads we try not doing that.I am not saying we should muck this hand, as I am stuck between calling and folding. But I am pretty sure this isn't a shove. We are either WA/WB, and we are not folding out any of the hands that beat us and there are no draws we have to worry about. If the villain bet more I am pretty sure this is a fold, however he is giving us a good enough price, that if we call he only needs to check the river about 1/4 times for this to be profitable (because I think we are ahead 90% if he checks).
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I think in general you need to give unknowns credit until they prove themselves otherwise. Your saying it is possible that this players range is bigger then we are giving him credit for, which might be true, but if you are never willing to lay down an overpair, you are a calling station. You have to realize that there is really not much difference of staking off here with an overpair or TP/TK and without reads we try not doing that.I am not saying we should muck this hand, as I am stuck between calling and folding. But I am pretty sure this isn't a shove. We are either WA/WB, and we are not folding out any of the hands that beat us and there are no draws we have to worry about. If the villain bet more I am pretty sure this is a fold, however he is giving us a good enough price, that if we call he only needs to check the river about 1/4 times for this to be profitable (because I think we are ahead 90% if he checks).
If you call the turn, you really have to fold to any bet on the river, even $40 again because it's just throwing away money. If he checks the river, then I'd check behind him too. Basically, if I were to continue with the hand (which I wouldn't given how ti played out) then I'd call his turn bet and not put another dollar into the pot.
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This isn't being afraid to play QQ strongly. It's not like we're waiting for the perfect board or a set. This isn't seeing monsters that aren't there. Yeah, the board doesn't look scary, but when it meets up with his narrow range of hands, we're pretty crushed by it.
And why have we put him on such a narrow range? Because we did what preflop? (rhetorical)Would you say that if this was UTG that called the range was any different? (serious)So... we threebet c-bet... and when we get called we're confident on non-set boards that have no ace, no king, no completed draws, and can't have 2 cards within the 8 to jack range........ whoa, that's a lot of boards :club:
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And why have we put him on such a narrow range? Because we did what preflop? (rhetorical)Would you say that if this was UTG that called the range was any different? (serious)So... we threebet c-bet... and when we get called we're confident on non-set boards that have no ace, no king, no completed draws, and can't have 2 cards within the 8 to jack range........ whoa, that's a lot of boards :club:
If this was UTG, I'd be slightly more inclined to stack off mostly becuase it's more reasonable for him to show up with AJ here. But it's not. We can't analyze this hand for UTG playing this way becuase he didn't. This is the SB. This is a player who voluntarily coldcalled a raise (UTG) and a reraise (EP) knowing that UTG could still reraise the pot.Let's do this. If you're so confident that we should be putting money into the pot, WTF are you putting the villain on? I've provided an analysis for the hand and stated why I feel that I think folding is the best move here, or conceding the point that we could call the turn and fold to a river bet. Your reasoning seems to consist of "we've got an overpair on a non-threatening looking board; if we're folding now, why the hell are we playing the hand anyway" which doesn't even begin to address anything about our opponent's cards, which should be of a primary concern to us. And to answer your question, YES, I'm confident on this board that has no ace, no king and no completed draws that our hand is very likely beaten. It's a hand reading exercise. It feels like you're reading the "Q" and the "Q" on our two cards and not trying to read what our opponent is hiding.I'm not giving him too much credit or too little. I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt to a player that I know nothing about, which seems to be a reasonable approach.
Call this down, and call down any non-A non-J river.
Nevermind, I guess I know that you put him on AJ or some combo hand with a J in it.
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People need to focus on what happened preflop becuase I think that's really the key to everything going on here.An UTG player raised and a player behind them reraised. The villain in the hand coldcalls a raise and a reraise, OOP, with the original UTG raiser still to act. He then check/calls a bet on a totally dry flop and leads an equally harmless looking turn card with a bet that the Hero is never expected to fold to.For everyone saying that the villain can have AJ, I think that's pretty ridiculous. Yeah, I know people are bad, but that's just a disgusting play. When someone coldcalls here, they almost always wind up with a hand that's either AK or 88-JJ type of hands and rarely AA. I think KK probably 4 bets preflop. Yeah, I know if they're gonna coldcall with 88, how is 33 or 44 any different, and the answer is: it's not.I would put my money on the fact that the villain has 99, TT or JJ here and the TT just seems unlikely beucase the line is so weird. Given the action, it's unlikely that Cwik would bet unpaired overcards on the turn again, so TT would likely check and fold to another bet. I really think the whole hand feels way too much like a flopped or even turned set here. I even think that 99 is more likely because a set often raises this flop becuase it's usually their best chance to stack an overpair.If you want to call, I call the turn and fold to a river bet. I think that there's nothing wrong with folding to this turn bet here. Yeah, it looks kind of exploitable, but everything adds up to us being beaten here. The whole sequence of events that happens is so rare that I don't think that dumping QQ here is gonna be too exploitable at all. It really feels like the villain knows he's got a lock on the hand and doesn't want the turn to get checked through, so he makes a small enough bet that you could consider calling with an AK/AQ type of hand, thinking that an overcard might be a win for you. There are just so few hands that make sense for a reasonable player to play this way and you basically only beat 1 of them, so I'm probably letting this hand go.
I agree with this pretty much 100%. This looks a LOT like 99 to me. I think folding isn't bad, but neither is calling, at least if you plan on folding if he bets the river hard.
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Acid told me to look at this hand and my first reaction was that you're running into JJ a ton here. I'm really bad in spots like this.

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If this was UTG, I'd be slightly more inclined to stack off mostly becuase it's more reasonable for him to show up with AJ here. But it's not. We can't analyze this hand for UTG playing this way becuase he didn't. This is the SB. This is a player who voluntarily coldcalled a raise (UTG) and a reraise (EP) knowing that UTG could still reraise the pot. We can analyze that situation. I was wondering if it really changed THAT much. And by slightly more inclined, you seem to be inferring you'd still highly consider folding, which is my point about the threebet. Also, I'm amazed that less than a third of your stack and less than third of the pot suddenly equals stacking off for like everyone here... you do realize this bet is the size of a flop minraise...Let's do this. If you're so confident that we should be putting money into the pot, WTF are you putting the villain on? check earlier in the threadI've provided an analysis for the hand and stated why I feel that I think folding is the best move here, or conceding the point that we could call the turn and fold to a river bet. Your reasoning seems to consist of "we've got an overpair on a non-threatening looking board; if we're folding now, why the hell are we playing the hand anyway" which doesn't even begin to address anything about our opponent's cards, which should be of a primary concern to us. Not at all. But if you fold this you shouldn't have built a big pot in the first place. We built a big pot, we're facing a small portion of it, and now we're folding. It's pathetic.And to answer your question, YES, I'm confident on this board that has no ace, no king and no completed draws that our hand is very likely beaten. It's a hand reading exercise. It feels like you're reading the "Q" and the "Q" on our two cards and not trying to read what our opponent is hiding.Ok, so you need a completely naked board like 2-2-6-8 or a set to play a big pot with the range you've specified against a three bet. Congrats, don't three bet queens preflop then because those boards don't come up all that often.I'm not giving him too much credit or too little. I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt to a player that I know nothing about, which seems to be a reasonable approach.Nevermind, I guess I know that you put him on AJ or some combo hand with a J in it.Wow, so you've gone from saying I'm blind to saying I'm completely ignoring a range and putting him on a single hand? You haven't even read my earlier posts in the thread and you're just being an ass. You can't even stay consistent in the same post.
Stop 3-betting Q-Q in 100BB games preflop because you play like a pussy. Period.
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Stop 3-betting Q-Q in 100BB games preflop because you play like a pussy. Period.
That has nothing to do with it Mr. Potty Mouth.If you're just going broke all the time with overpairs just because the board is safe, we've found you a leak. This isn't a god awful place to call, but just figuring that, "Hell, I have an overpair and have ~100bb so I'm going broke ASAP" is plain wrong.You really think this guy flat called two raises with anything that we're beating other than 1010 here? Ever? Your standard villain here isn't showing up with anything that we beat very often.
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This isn't a great board for QQ when we had an UTG raise and a re-raise followed by a blind smooth call.

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Acid/Krup/MtD pretty much nailed itDon't know much about 1/2 at FT but at UB more players than not know what they're doing and that cold calling a 3-bet when effective stacks are only 100BB (i.e. not much in the way of implied odds), in the worst position at the table, with anything less than 99 is incredibly -EV (hand range is probably even tighter than that). If they're playing TT/AJ-, they're 4-betting (rare) suspecting a light OTB raise more often than coldcalling (incredibly rare). For those of you saying we make ourselves exploitable - after seeing this, you really think villains are going to start cold-calling 3-bets OOP, float us/call weak OOP on the flop, donkbet turn and effectively commit themselves if stacks are 100BB or less in the hope that we just tried to button steal with air? Because when we fold, that's all our hand looks like at this point. If that's the exploit we encourage, I welcome it whole heartedly.If villains think they can do the same when they have position - that's fine too. The next time we raise pf and c-bet with T8, I am happy to draw out on the fool for cheap. The point is that whenever we create an "exploit" for a villain, the villain in turn has to open up a hole in his own game that we in turn can exploit. Being aware of that is what "changing gears" is all about.FWIW, I don't hate a call on the turn since there's an outside shot that a str8 completing card or a higher broadway card causes villain to check. But folding the river is must absent a Q, and folding the turn would be better.

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Stop 3-betting Q-Q in 100BB games preflop because you play like a pussy. Period.
When you say things like this, it backs up my contention that you're playing our cards and not his hand. This hand has NOTHING to do with playing like a pussy. If everything adds up to us being beaten, why are we putting more money into the pot?Listen, I'll be the first to advocate stacking off with QQ on an A83r board if I put my opponent soundly on a hand like JJ or TT or if I think he's making a move. I put my stack into another pot with AA (in my Bite the Bullet thread) where the board was horrible for my hand, but I figured I was in good shape over the villain's range. Here, I don't think we are in good shape against his range. I don't think it's close. If you can't fold an overpair, then you've got a big leak in your game.You keep saying that we're pussying out for folding to his small raise. Why? The size of the bet has nothing to do with it. It's all about the odds that he's providing us and the odds of us drawing out if we're beaten. I'm gonna look for where you provided a range earlier in the thread, becuase I dind't see it. That one post made it pretty clear that if you're calling a river bet on a non-A, non-J river, then that means that we're weighting AK/AQ/AJ and Jx type hands pretty heavily in his range and that just doesn't make sense.If there was some history here, this would all be different. If the villain knew the hero was 3-betting lightly or if the UTG player was always full of it, then his range is wider preflop. We really have no choice but to assume that the SB is of normal competence and play accordingly.For the record, if this was the UTG player, I wouldn't be happy about it but I'd probaby stack off there until I learned that he can't show up with AJ/TT here.
Oh, we can include:7-7, A-9s float, J-10s, Q-Js, K-Js etc etc etc
I found this. It really looks like you're grasping for reasons why we're still ahead instead of facing the reality that the line he took preflop combined with the board cards will rarely leave any hand that we beat. I would highly doubt if he ever shows up with any of this garbage here.
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Why have you not given up, Matt?
I figured people are here to learn?I keep providing logic. He keeps saying "ZOMG OVERPAIR!!!!!!!! HE ONLY BET $40 AND YOU WANNA FOLD?? WHAT A WEAK TIGHT NOOB!"Oh, and then arguing with a picture of a trainwreck becuase he realizes that he can't logically prove his argument.I'll be done now and I'll just wait for the results where either cwik folds or gets shown a hand he was beaten soundly by.
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and we're getting soft-pumped on the turn ...
Thinking of your underage cousin again?Sorry, but "getting soft-pumped" just sounded WAAAAAAY too dirty not to make a sexual reference about it.
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Regardless of the results, I think this hands illustrates why bluffing the turn is so much better than bluffing the river. He bets $40 and we suddenly have to consider the possibility of getting stacked.

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Thinking of your underage cousin again?Sorry, but "getting soft-pumped" just sounded WAAAAAAY too dirty not to make a sexual reference about it.
She's not underage -- remember, I'm the old man. Anyway, what's happening in the hand is dirty.
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