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So, does anybody else think Mason Malmuth is retarded and condescending at the same time? It sounds to me like Snyder has some good ideas though, and explains them fairly well. I found this book, and that one by the FBI profiler on amazon for like $25, so I'll prob be ordering those very soon.

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So, does anybody else think Mason Malmuth is retarded and condescending at the same time? It sounds to me like Snyder has some good ideas though, and explains them fairly well. I found this book, and that one by the FBI profiler on amazon for like $25, so I'll prob be ordering those very soon.
LMAO about the description of Malmuth. Great way to put it!What's the FBI profiler thing all about?
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LMAO about the description of Malmuth. Great way to put it!What's the FBI profiler thing all about?
The FBI profiler's name is Joe Navarro (I think), and he used to teach seminars at Hellmuth's poker camps. He has a book out now on using his knowledge from working for the FBI to pick up tells on people at the table. Apparently there is some good stuff in there.
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Here's an example hand where I used this tactic (though my hand wasn't technically junk, I would have done the same thing regardless of what I had):PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)MP3 (t1460)CO (t1380)Hero (t1460)SB (t2480)BB (t1500)UTG (t1500)UTG+1 (t1280)MP1 (t1500)MP2 (t940)Preflop: Hero is Button with Kclub.gif, Jdiamond.gif. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20, Hero raises to t40, 1 fold, BB calls t20, UTG+1 calls t20, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20.Flop: (t250) 5club.gif, 9heart.gif, Aclub.gif(6 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets t200, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds.Final Pot: t450
God I hate this book and this lame strategy already. I really hate hate hate this play.
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God I hate this book and this lame strategy already. I really hate hate hate this play.
skillz, that particular play is a more obscure one. SI in that hand didn't actually employ it in the right situation. Snyder suggests when the blinds are like 150/300 and you're sitting on 10k while everyone else is sitting on ~2k, several people limp, and you min-raise in late position. Mostly, it'll damage the hell out of any of the short stacks that play the pot. You may not be the one that wins it, but it'll create havoc and the "good" players will hate you for it because it's such a confusing play.Oh, and he also says to not do it with a real hand...mostly marginal/junk hands that you would've limped with anyway.
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skillz, that particular play is a more obscure one. SI in that hand didn't actually employ it in the right situation. Snyder suggests when the blinds are like 150/300 and you're sitting on 10k while everyone else is sitting on ~2k, several people limp, and you min-raise in late position. Mostly, it'll damage the hell out of any of the short stacks that play the pot. You may not be the one that wins it, but it'll create havoc and the "good" players will hate you for it because it's such a confusing play.Oh, and he also says to not do it with a real hand...mostly marginal/junk hands that you would've limped with anyway.
You're right about a lot of the specifics there (that I had already forgotten about even though I just read the book a few days ago...I think like HoH I need to read it a few more times to let it sink in). But do you think he would hate the play overall? What do you think Snyder would do in this situation? Maybe just limp in? Obviously he's not folding on his prized button. And then what about when everyone checks around after the flop--don't you think he'd "take a shot" at the pot?Also, tskillz, just out of curiosity, how would you have played the hand? Limp preflop, then check behind on the flop? (That's what I would have done a few days ago.)
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I probably would have just folded it PF. I play really tight early unless I have a hand that has sneaky value, KJo has no sneaky value and can cost you a little too much if you hit the flop.

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I probably would have just folded it PF. I play really tight early unless I have a hand that has sneaky value, KJo has no sneaky value and can cost you a little too much if you hit the flop.
Really? No limp for that cheap? All those limpers...what if the flop comes Q 10 2 rainbow, say?So, anyway, I was rereading the book today and came across a couple funny lines I thought I'd share (the book is math-heavy, but like Action Dan, Snyder has a wry sense of humour at times). Both refer to a multi-qualifier satellite situation where you are one of the chip leaders in the late stages:First, a situation (like a satellite with 200 original entrants, only 25 remain, and you are in the top ten chip leaders) where you can be virtually assured of coasting into the "money": "I'd throw away pocket aces. Why risk a suck-out when I'm already assured of a win? I'd let the more desperate players--the players who know they are on the edge of extinction--grapple for position with each other. Don't bother me, I'm meditating."Next, a ST qualifier that awards two seats, when there are five players left: "If you are in any of the top three chip positions, you've got to be careful about taking shots at the truly desperate. Let the children play with each other."
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Here's an example hand where I used this tactic (though my hand wasn't technically junk, I would have done the same thing regardless of what I had):PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)MP3 (t1460)CO (t1380)Hero (t1460)SB (t2480)BB (t1500)UTG (t1500)UTG+1 (t1280)MP1 (t1500)MP2 (t940)Preflop: Hero is Button with Kclub.gif, Jdiamond.gif. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20, Hero raises to t40, 1 fold, BB calls t20, UTG+1 calls t20, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20.Flop: (t250) 5club.gif, 9heart.gif, Aclub.gif(6 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets t200, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds.Final Pot: t450
The stars were aligned right on this one. If there were an A in another hand, your min-raise screams small pair or weak Ace at best and you'll get played back at a lot. It also doesnt hurt that its the Ac on the board and you hold the K, because two clubs (esp with the 9) are going to be a lot more cautious without the nut flush card. Then theres the limping pairs of 5s and 9s that weren't there. I really dont see the value in the min-raise. Even after the clarfification that the play is intended for your very big stack vs. smaller stacks, the difference between the min-raise and a standard raise doesnt hurt you, and it narrows the field signficantly more than the min-raise. Then you dont find yourself up against well disguised hands anymore.
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your min-raise screams small pair or weak Ace at best
Huh, I tend to suspect KK or AA when I see a minraise.
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I really dont see the value in the min-raise. Even after the clarfification that the play is intended for your very big stack vs. smaller stacks, the difference between the min-raise and a standard raise doesnt hurt you, and it narrows the field signficantly more than the min-raise.
He states that your goal in this particular situation isn't to narrow the field in order to better win the pot. Yeah, you might win a slightly bloated consequence as a result, but that's a by-product. The real reason you're doing it is to screw with people and create crippling havoc.
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The real reason you're doing it is to screw with people and create crippling havoc.
Since when is this poker's objective, though? I'm not there to annoy players with my customarily awful play. I'm there to win pots and make money or accumulate chips.
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I hope these are his exact words. This sounds like a second function of some Magic the Gathering card.
LAWLS.KJ? fold preflop in my terrible opinion. maybe this guy is on to something. i dunno, i haven't read it, and certainly haven't implemented it. the creating havoc thing makes me laugh so hard my eyes water. i'll try implementing it in a cash game. i can't finish this post i'm laughing so hard.
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Since when is this poker's objective, though? I'm not there to annoy players with my customarily awful play. I'm there to win pots and make money or accumulate chips.
But if you are the big stack and the small stacks (in Orange or Red Zones) are making the mistake of limping when they should be in push/fold mode, making them pay an extra bet helps you, no? He points out that someone else may well win the pot, but you're on the way to winnowing the field and since this is not a cash game but a tourney, that does help you.
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But if you are the big stack and the small stacks (in Orange or Red Zones) are making the mistake of limping when they should be in push/fold mode, making them pay an extra bet helps you, no? He points out that someone else may well win the pot, but you're on the way to winnowing the field and since this is not a cash game but a tourney, that does help you.
It would seem that if they should be in push fold mode (which means that they dont really have the chips to outplay you postflop) you are reducing the size of their error and doing them a favor. Remember, you cant outplay them post flop either, because their stack is limited, and a minraise here further ties your hands.I just picked up the book..it will take me a few days to get through.
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It would seem that if they should be in push fold mode (which means that they dont really have the chips to outplay you postflop) you are reducing the size of their error and doing them a favor.
How are you reducing the size of their error, when they end up either losing the amount they limped for, or they have to put double the amount in the pot, before they see a flop? Surely they don't want to have to do this before seeing a flop, so how is it good news for them?Look forward to your impressions of the book.
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How are you reducing the size of their error, when they end up either losing the amount they limped for, or they have to put double the amount in the pot, before they see a flop? Surely they don't want to have to do this before seeing a flop, so how is it good new for them?Look forward to your impressions of the book.
I'm focusing on the first one in...everyone else is limping for pot odds. If UTG should be betting big, and instead he bet small, and youre forcing him to bet bigger...closer to the right amount. In fact you are giving him a chance to push back totally correcting his error. When a very small stack limps or min-raises its usually a strong hand that doesnt want to chase everyone away.
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How are you reducing the size of their error, when they end up either losing the amount they limped for, or they have to put double the amount in the pot, before they see a flop? Surely they don't want to have to do this before seeing a flop, so how is it good news for them?Look forward to your impressions of the book.
The original limp is some of these limpers error. Once so many in the pot and they need to call the min raise as now they have great pot odds(or better now).Just becuase they make one mistake does not make them call more a bigger mistake, in a lot of cases it is actually a benefit to them.Same as preflop to post flop. You can limp in with 72o everytime you get it but the bigger mistake would be folding it on a flop of 772 because, 'you shouldn't have played this hand after all'.Choices need to be made one at a time independent of any prior mistakes.The min raise seems kinda silly to me but I guess it could mess up other players in the short term. Seems kinda stolen from limit play. I have only skimmed through this book twice now and although some of stuff in there seems somewhat foolish I do think his style does the trick to creating havoc and staying aggressive at the table.As stated in a previous post, there was some good stuff in there too which I am trying to use a bit more(cards>chips>position>repeat) and some of the button play(I am not doing with any hand but have loosened up a bit more and made stabs when checked to).
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Let me just go ahead and quote the section that I'm referring to so that we're all on the same page...From Chapter 13 (Bluffing):The Mini-RaiseThe mini-raise is a preflop, late position bluff that you'll find many opportunities to use if you gather a big chip stack. This is a bluff that you can make when you get to the point in the tournament when there are many short stacks compared to the costs of the blinds and antes. This is the point when the average chip stack in the tournament is short.In fast tournaments, this usually occurs sometime just after the halfway point. For example, two and a half hours into the Orleans Monday night tournament, the blinds hit $150 and $300. This is a multiple-rebuy/add-on tournament, where the average player makes 3.5 rebuys, giving the average player about $1,350 in total starting chips. This tournament generally has about 200 entrants, and at this point about two-and-a-half hours in, about half of the players have been eliminated. This means the average chip stack for the remaining 100 players is about $2,700.Since it costs $150+$300 = $450 to go around the table once, the "average" player will be desperate, with only six times the cost of going through the blinds. But in fact, there will be very few players with average sized stacks at this time. There will be a few players with chip stacks well over $10,000, a few more with stacks of $5,000 to $10,000, and many who are hanging on by a thread. It is not unusual to see six to eight players at a single table with fewer than the average number of chips. This is when the mini-raise is a beautiful move.Again, you can only make this bluff when you are very well stacked with a stack of chips relative to the blind costs and the other stacks on your table. It's a bluff that's designed to cripple the short stacks, but you can often pick up the pot with it as well. The other conditions you need to make this move are:1. You must be in late position, preferably on the button or in the cuttoff seat.2. Three or more players must have limped into the pot.3. Two or more of the limpers must be short-stacked; the more short stacks in the pot the better.You most often find these opportunities right after the blind level has increased, which further worries the short stacks. This is also the point in the tournament where you see how many truly poor players there are left in the field. It will not be uncommon at this point in the tournament to see a player with only $2,000 in chips into pot after pot, only to fold when an aggressive player makes a big raise. These players have no clue whatsoever about tournament speed factors, and they especially do not realize that with such short stacks, their only preflop bet should be all-in, unless they have aces or kings and are trying to get another player to make a move on them. Remember, when you are this short on chips, you should either be all-in or stay out of the way.In any case, here's how the mini-raise works: let's say the blinds are $150 and $300, and five players have limped in. Three of the limpers have only $1,500 to $2,000 or so. You are the chip leader, and you have about $10,000 in chips. When the action gets to you, you simply raise the minimum amount. You make the bet $600. Your cards are immaterial.This move will drive any of the "good" tournament players at your table bonkers. Even experienced aggressive players whom you know to be dangerous and whom you frequently see at final tables will be scratching their heads at your mini-raise. What the hell kind of raise is that? You can't even make this move without chuckling to yourself. But every player in that pot who just wanted to see a flop will hate you, and they'll have no idea how to read the meaning of that wimpy raise.Essentially, what you're doing with the mini-raise is forcing already desperate players into greater desperation. You are single-handedly redistributing the wealth at your table. Because of your chip stack and position, you'll often take this pot postflop because that mini-raise is just confusing as hell. Do you have aces? Big slick? Queens? Nothing but a sense of humor?Even if you don't ultimately take the pot, that mini-raise is good for you because it hurts so many other players. Most players will be compelled to call your mini-raise simply because the pot has grown so much since they put in their first $300. Often, a player who many have limped with a quality hand will go over the top of your mini-raise now that he's got a real pot to take a shot at, giving those short stacks a very tough decision, and an even tougher decision if they have already called your mini-raise before that other reraise. Obviously, if you don't have a playable hand, you fold to any reraise yourself.If no player reraises your mini-raise, then you have position after the flop and a whole table full of players who entered with non-premium hands and who view you - the big chip stack - as the preflop aggressor. If no player takes a shot at this pot postflop, any normal bet of about half the size of the pot will usually deliver it to you. If there is a postflop bet, you'll have to abandon your hand unless the flop actually hits you. But you did your dirty work and you should be pleased with the result.The mini-raise punishes players for treating a no-limit tournament like a limit ring game. One player will win a nice pot, but a lot of others will lose more chips than they intended to risk, and any short stacks will lose a lot more chips than they could afford to give up. The whole essence of a tournament is the redistribution of wealth, with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. When you count yourself among the rich, anything you can do to make the poor poorer at a reasonable cost to yourself is a favorable result. You're accelerating your opponents' demise and getting yourself closer to the money. And, since you have position on this hand, you would at least have called all of those $300 limpers from the button anyway. There was just too much money in the pot for you to throw away any hand. So, that mini-raise only cost you an extra $300. If you count the strategic value of this bluff, which will give you the pot a good percentage of the time, it has little or no cost. I should point out that if you have a real hand here - say any high pocket pair or big slick, A-Q suited - you should not make a mini-raise. In that case, you should make a bet that at least matches the size of the pot. And that's no bluff.

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Ahhh..that makes a little more sense in context. Instead of blowing off 16% of their stack with their minraise, they are sucked into blowing off 33% of it. There is still a fallacy in this approach unless you are near the bubble however. Far from the bubble you dont care how chips are distributed, in fact I for one would prefer 4 small short stacks to 3 even shorter stacks and one bigger stack. Divide and conquer so to speak. So if you dont win the pot, and one of the small stacks does, youve turned 4 gnats into 3 gnats and a wasp. The wasp is probably to your right, which makes him a little less dangerous, but Im still not sold on the whole concept.

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Here's an example hand where I used this tactic (though my hand wasn't technically junk, I would have done the same thing regardless of what I had):PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)MP3 (t1460)CO (t1380)Hero (t1460)SB (t2480)BB (t1500)UTG (t1500)UTG+1 (t1280)MP1 (t1500)MP2 (t940)Preflop: Hero is Button with Kclub.gif, Jdiamond.gif. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20, Hero raises to t40, 1 fold, BB calls t20, UTG+1 calls t20, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20.Flop: (t250) 5club.gif, 9heart.gif, Aclub.gif(6 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets t200, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds.Final Pot: t450
Wrong example hand to demonstrate since the stacks sizes so not warrant but I can see how in bubble situations this makes some sense.
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Chiming in to say that I loved this book, that I got a lot of good principles from it, and that Mason HAS been a jerk about it. Mason is a smart guy who has done quite a bit for cultivating modern poker strategy, but he'd have saved a lot of face to just admit Arnold had a point about fast tourney play, given the evidence. Snyder in fact concedes that developing players ought to read 2+2's books, so the least Mason could do is make a similar concession in the face of strong evidence. But he won't. And it just makes him look insecure and catty.

Ahhh..that makes a little more sense in context. Instead of blowing off 16% of their stack with their minraise, they are sucked into blowing off 33% of it. There is still a fallacy in this approach unless you are near the bubble however. Far from the bubble you dont care how chips are distributed, in fact I for one would prefer 4 small short stacks to 3 even shorter stacks and one bigger stack. Divide and conquer so to speak. So if you dont win the pot, and one of the small stacks does, youve turned 4 gnats into 3 gnats and a wasp. The wasp is probably to your right, which makes him a little less dangerous, but Im still not sold on the whole concept.
You're right that this shouldn't be used earlier in a tournament. The key is that you don't use the miniraise unless it's later in the tournament... around the bubble, when smaller stacks are clinging to survival. Snyder acknowledges this.
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