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A7s To A Push


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Ok, so clearly this thread is not getting much good discussion going. I actually wasn't invovled in this hand. I was railing a friend of mine in the 100r and it came up with a very well known player. Is this kind of play that seperates the KWOB's of the world from everyone else, or is he just a luckbox that makes bad decisions but wins every race?PokerStars Game #6842193965: Tournament #34619044, $100+$9 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2006/10/31 - 15:28:33 (ET)Table '34619044 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the buttonSeat 1: DAJ6666 (8225 in chips) Seat 2: kwob20 (18670 in chips) Seat 4: RandALLin (14905 in chips) Seat 5: karecon (9260 in chips) Seat 6: jochen8 (4250 in chips) Seat 7: FrozenVeins (9230 in chips) Seat 8: ZULEH (3720 in chips) Seat 9: jpa_25 (5605 in chips) FrozenVeins: posts small blind 75ZULEH: posts big blind 150*** HOLE CARDS ***jpa_25: folds DAJ6666: folds kwob20: raises 300 to 450RandALLin: folds karecon: folds jochen8: folds FrozenVeins: folds ZULEH: raises 3270 to 3720 and is all-inkwob20: calls 3270*** FLOP *** [Jh As 6s]*** TURN *** [Jh As 6s] [2c]*** RIVER *** [Jh As 6s 2c] [Qc]*** SHOW DOWN ***ZULEH: shows [4s 4d] (a pair of Fours)kwob20: shows [7d Ad] (a pair of Aces)kwob20 collected 7515 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 7515 | Rake 0 Board [Jh As 6s 2c Qc]Seat 1: DAJ6666 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 2: kwob20 showed [7d Ad] and won (7515) with a pair of AcesSeat 4: RandALLin folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 5: karecon folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 6: jochen8 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 7: FrozenVeins (small blind) folded before FlopSeat 8: ZULEH (big blind) showed [4s 4d] and lost with a pair of FoursSeat 9: jpa_25 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
KWOB put your friend on a resteal, is all. That's usually a bad decision, but it could be a good read-based call.The lesson: Don't resteal from known LAGs wielding a big stack with low pocket pairs.
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Big stack raises probably with the intentions to steal. His stack is big enough to deal with the stack that is playing back at him.Even if he loses, he is still left with alot of chips.This just seems like big stack against small stack who can't really hurt us play. yes/no?

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Big stack raises probably with the intentions to steal. His stack is big enough to deal with the stack that is playing back at him.Even if he loses, he is still left with alot of chips.This just seems like big stack against small stack who can't really hurt us play. yes/no?
Kwob's not getting the odds to call here with an easily dominated hand. Villain's stack is still 1/5 of Kwob's - that's not an insignificant figure. Loose calls like this are why big stacks become small.But like Briguy said villain's push is also bad. Kwob is likely calling and does villain really want to race with 44? And I really doubt that kwob will lay down 55.
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Big stack raises probably with the intentions to steal. His stack is big enough to deal with the stack that is playing back at him.Even if he loses, he is still left with alot of chips.This just seems like big stack against small stack who can't really hurt us play. yes/no?
Kwob's not getting the odds to call here with an easily dominated hand. Villain's stack is still 1/5 of his - that's not an insignificant figure. Loose calls like this are why big stacks needlessly become small.But like Briguy said villain's push is also bad. Kwob is likely calling and does villain really want to race with 44? And I really doubt that kwob will lay down 55.
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The guy who pushed from the BB was not my friend, I have no idea who he is. Don't think I'm posting this b/c I'm bitter he knocked out someone I know with what HAS to be a terrible call.The tide of this thread seems to be changing since I revealed who the actual hero was...interesting.

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The guy who pushed from the BB was not my friend, I have no idea who he is. Don't think I'm posting this b/c I'm bitter he knocked out someone I know with what HAS to be a terrible call.The tide of this thread seems to be changing since I revealed who the actual hero was...interesting.
It is interesting isn't it? Reveal hero's identity and suddenly there are rationalizations for why this play is acceptable. It's a bad call, no two ways about it.
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Hey, I never said I would play the hand like Kwob. I'm only Lag from late positions, unless the table conditions are tight-weak-passive. But I see steal-happy LAGs making bad calls with AXs all the time, which is why I prefer to "resteal" from them with higher pockets or strong A's.44 is definitely not in my range to push against a call-happy LAG.

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The guy who pushed from the BB was not my friend, I have no idea who he is. Don't think I'm posting this b/c I'm bitter he knocked out someone I know with what HAS to be a terrible call.The tide of this thread seems to be changing since I revealed who the actual hero was...interesting.
I don't know who kwob is, never heard of the screen name until today. Who is he?His M Is huge and even if he loses his M will be very high. Not sure what the average stack is, but I suspect it's fairly low. 1/5th of your stack with an M that's through the roof seems acceptable to me, unless his Q is low, which I suspect is not the case.
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My non-subscriber (i.e. limited) Sharkscope search has kwob as a losing player over 158 games. That may explain the hand a little. :D
He's actually a great player. 158 games is rather insignificant (I think you were just joking though :club:
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His M Is huge and even if he loses his M will be very high. Not sure what the average stack is, but I suspect it's fairly low. 1/5th of your stack with an M that's through the roof seems acceptable to me, unless his Q is low, which I suspect is not the case.
that logic sucks.we don't take that obvious -cEV decisions just because we have a big stack.If we were eliminating someone at a bubble point, sure.But sluffing off 20% of your stack just because you can spare it, is bad.my opinion never wavered.
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He's actually a great player. 158 games is rather insignificant (I think you were just joking though :club:
Not really. I can only comment on the hard info in front of me. I don't subscribe to the Poker DB either, so that link doesn't help me. I don't like this A7s play myself, but I can understand it if KWOB has a read that the 44 guy will resteal light.
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If I were him, I"d change it to "bite mine"But that's because I'm funny and don't take me seriously.
But, "suck" is a poker term and fits this board and post so much better than bite.And, since the A7 was the "very slight" underdog but won, this hand was indeed a suck.Besides, I have no desire to have mine bitten.So I repeat.... suck mine.As for raise with A7 in 5th position but fold in 3rd... this is the same as folding with it UTG at a table of 5 or folding with it when UTG at a table of 7. In poker, you're playing against all the players that have not yet folded. In MP1 you're opening at a table of 7. In MP3 you're opening at a table of 5. HUGE difference between a table of 7 and a table of 5, in my opinion.
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:club::D
you know your clapping and focus on a pf raise with A7s makes you look dumb, right?I'm pretty certain players like Tremomey raise A7s thereRaising is fineLimping is fineFolding is Fineit's quite irrelevant relative to post flop playgiven the stack, pos, and hand.I'm only saying your clear rigged plays and strong reactions are bad.Along with your assertion that you were donk struck in the Strat Tourney #6, lends more support to my suspicion that you've read a couple books and think there is a right way and a wrong way and no way in between. You should open your mind a bit. you should clap for the posts WrongWay stated that a play site was rigged and he won't ever put money on a real site because they could be rigged.
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lol It's funny, Actuary - while we disagree, my disagreements with you are always about the hand and specifics of it. Your responses always seem to contain ad hominem arguments - you can't seem to refrain yourself from personal attacks instead of speaking about the issue at hand.You can stop posting here like you said anytime now. :club:

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You can stop posting here like you said anytime now. :D
You should read better.I never said I was not posting anymore in threads I"ve already posted in.Please review and apologize.and don't use fancy words like "ad hominem"**************to save you from searching.And this was quoted in the thread as well.My edit was added soon after but is immaterial anyway to your ascertion I wasn't keeping my word
***********one more thing...I won't be commenting in any threads that I have not yet commented in, except for those in the Micro Limit Forum (the LHE hands, only) until at least the new year and I've learned more from playing to really bring value to my comments. I"m afraid a lot of us that win still make a ton of mistakes and are fooled in the short and long term because the really aweful players still let us take part of the prize pool. Furthermore, I need to focus on getting a job and selling a house (hopefully)edit to add: or any thread in which I'm mentioned :club:
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Your responses always seem to contain ad hominem arguments - you can't seem to refrain yourself from personal attacks instead of speaking about the issue at hand.
you should clap for the posts WrongWay stated that a play site was rigged and he won't ever put money on a real site because they could be rigged.
IQ.... Actuary has been a complete and total **** to me ever since I said I don't play internet poker for cash. Why not? 1) It could be rigged. I'm not saying it is. I'm simply saying it could be.No amount of being a **** is going to convince me that it is impossible for on-line poker to be rigged. Quite the contrary. Being a **** just shows me you have no logical argument that could be used to convince me. Being a **** is a last resort.2) I pretty much suck at poker. I'm trying to get better, but I still suck. While I'm getting better I have no desire to give money to the players that are much better than me.Okay, I play live games for cash, but I have much more control over who I get into a game with in real life. Online, you join a game, and you're in with whomever else shows up.Being a **** isn't going to make me a better player.So, I see Actuary as being a **** in an attempt to intimidate me into donating my money towards the $1.5 billion a year profits of the on-line gambling companies, which isn't going to happen.Or, possibly he is being a **** trying to get me to shut up and go away, which also isn't going to happen.So, in response to his being a complete and total **** to me ever since I said I don't play on-line poker for money, my response remains the same...SUCK MINE!!!!!!!And, I still throw away A7s from 3rd position of a 9 player table, even if I'm the big stack. Too easy to end up in a coin flip. Too easy to to end up dominated.
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you know your clapping and focus on a pf raise with A7s makes you look dumb, right?I'm pretty certain players like Tremomey raise A7s thereRaising is fineLimping is fineFolding is Fineit's quite irrelevant relative to post flop playgiven the stack, pos, and hand.I'm only saying your clear rigged plays and strong reactions are bad.Along with your assertion that you were donk struck in the Strat Tourney #6, lends more support to my suspicion that you've read a couple books and think there is a right way and a wrong way and no way in between. You should open your mind a bit. you should clap for the posts WrongWay stated that a play site was rigged and he won't ever put money on a real site because they could be rigged.
I would raise A7s with that stack and that point in the tourney unless my raises had been getting no respect and the table was a bit crazy. Much of my preflop decisions are determined by how the table is playing.. I don't sit there and think I'm UTG+1= A7s autofold. All situational.As for his call of the push. He could believe that the Villain would push 22-66 making his hand a flip, KQ-K10.. or a few other random hands. A lot of the super LAG players out there make all kinds of crazy calls like this that are just pure gambling calls maybe based on the fact that they are running ridiculously well.. who knows. I'm probably folding to the shove myself unless I have a really good read at the time that he isn't that strong.
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IQ,had a litle time to review...If you call me, saying you were being ridiculous in your assertion of what to do with A7s being so rigid, as being a personal attack.lol.. you gotta grow a little skin. When I called you dumb for clapping and supporting WrongWay and focusing on Preflop with A7s deeeep stacked, ok..that was semi personal attack.. BUT look what you had alread said and your attitude.But here's the key: My attitude towards you changed when you acted like a jerk towards Alex, saying "donk struck" (check time on posts). Above all, I try to learn and help and facilitate both (I stick up for new guys if they are not jerks). Hence my insistence on no results and converting. I have nothing against you. I do get defensive and should work on that.*************************8Wrong Way:saying online poker could/might be rigged insults everyone here who plays it. I may be an *** to you; but everyone else is laughing at the idea that someone thinks it might be rigged. I try to help players who take this game seriously. I have little tolerance/time to help someone who is as irrational as youYou ALREADy SAID NO ONE WILL EVER CONVINCE YOU THAT ONLINE POKER IS NOT RIGGED 100%. So, quit pretending/posting that me being a **** has anything thing to do with you not being convinced. I'd be happy to review your next 100,000 hands for anomalies.**************No one can question my sincere dedication to helping and doing what I can in Strategy, admittingly, inexperinced as I am and learning along with all of you.,

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saying online poker could/might be rigged insults everyone here who plays it.
Not my intention, but not my problem.
everyone else is laughing at the idea that someone thinks it might be rigged.
Not my concern. I'm not a "go along to get along" type person. I'm here to learn poker, to improve my game.
I try to help players who take this game seriously. I have little tolerance/time to help someone who is as irrational as you
I do take the game of poker seriously... live games that is.Online poker? That is just to get time in chair for free.As for me being irrational....1) I'm not irrational.2) Suck mine.
You ALREADy SAID NO ONE WILL EVER CONVINCE YOU THAT ONLINE POKER IS NOT RIGGED 100%. So, quit pretending/posting that me being a **** has anything thing to do with you not being convinced.
I think you have a misplaced modifier here. I'm not convinced it is rigged. I'm convinced that it is possible that it could be rigged.No one will ever convince me 100% that online poker could not be rigged. I don't know if it is rigged or not.... I'm open to the possibility that at least some online poker could be rigged.
I'd be happy to review your next 100,000 hands for anomalies.
The info you would need is not available, such as how long each player had been playing free-money without depositing money. How recently they'd deposited real money. Stuff like that.Maybe just for the heck of it, I should go back to that one site where the free money games seemed rigged. Maybe see if I can gain some data..... Just for the heck of it.
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