Prtypsux Pwns

[Bizzle 0]

I don't care what anybody says...there is no way that PrtyPsux only uses this exact line with AA

Well, duh. He did table KK here.

[Butcho22 0]

Well, duh. He did table KK here.

My point exactly.....

[Bizzle 0]

My point exactly.....

I was being sarcastic. If you have watched Prty play at all, you know that this is a line he would take with AA and KK. There really isn't another hand he would take this line with this early in a tourney. He knows Roothlus well enough that Rooth isn't going to mess with him preflop, and the same knowledge goes in the other direction. This is a situation that is purely unique in terms of the players playing each other, knowing the other's capabilities, and making the correct play throughout the entire hand.

[Butcho22 0]

I was being sarcastic. If you have watched Prty play at all, you know that this is a line he would take with AA and KK. There really isn't another hand he would take this line with this early in a tourney. He knows Roothlus well enough that Rooth isn't going to mess with him preflop, and the same knowledge goes in the other direction. This is a situation that is purely unique in terms of the players playing each other, knowing the other's capabilities, and making the correct play throughout the entire hand.

i'll give you that...

[tskillz187 0]

I stand by the KK fold being correct. What I really want to know is what was going through PrtyPsux mind. Why did he hit the timebank? Was he considering smooth-calling? Did he think he was up against AA? I have a hard time thinking he did it posturing to make roothlus call weak, I mean they do respect each other as very solid MTT players.For those of you that think its a call for Roothlus, I think PPsux would make the exact same laydown if positions were reversed.I hope PPsux replies to this again because I'd like to know what was going through his mind before the 4th raise all-in, I think he had to give consideration that roothlus had AA. What would PPsux line be if Roothlus put it to 900-1200 instead of 650 as Royal had suggested?

[Butcho22 0]

I stand by the KK fold being correct. What I really want to know is what was going through PrtyPsux mind. Why did he hit the timebank? Was he considering smooth-calling? Did he think he was up against AA? I have a hard time thinking he did it posturing to make roothlus call weak, I mean they do respect each other as very solid MTT players.For those of you that think its a call for Roothlus, I think PPsux would make the exact same laydown if positions were reversed.I hope PPsux replies to this again because I'd like to know what was going through his mind before the 4th raise all-in, I think he had to give consideration that roothlus had AA. What would PPsux line be if Roothlus put it to 900-1200 instead of 650 as Royal had suggested?

you fail to see the big picture don't you?

[tskillz187 0]

Please Butcho, I don't let my ego get involved anymore, enlighten me. I'm just trying to have some dialogue, though I appreciate your condescending attitude. If you're response is that PPsux did in fact have KK here, I don't care.

[PMJackson21 0]

I was being sarcastic. If you have watched Prty play at all, you know that this is a line he would take with AA and KK. There really isn't another hand he would take this line with this early in a tourney. He knows Roothlus well enough that Rooth isn't going to mess with him preflop, and the same knowledge goes in the other direction. This is a situation that is purely unique in terms of the players playing each other, knowing the other's capabilities, and making the correct play throughout the entire hand.

That sums it up nicely.After the strength Roothlus showed, Prty better have a very, very limited range of hands to come over the top there. I think Rooth is dead on to put him on the other two kings or AA at that stage in that tournament. Also, I really don't think Prty has a 'tight' image at all. It has more to do with the situation then Prty's image. Roothlus knows Prty isn't a moron, therefore he can narrow his range of hands far more then he could vs a random internet donkey.As for why would Prty push AA there if that is what he had: Roothlus opens UTG, indicating strength, or at least most of the time. Prty knows he is facing an UTG raise, and re-raises anyway, which 9/10 times (esp at this stage) means a premium hand. Now, Roothlus knows that Prty is probably not messing around, and yet still decides to re-raise. At this point, if I was Prty and I had AA vs most players, a jam is the obvious play. Every sign would lead you to belive that Roothlus is willing to call your jam, and by getting all the chips in pre-flop, you are not giving him a chance to get away from the hand if an ace flops (or any sort of board that might scare him away).The fact that it's Roothlus though, might lead me to cold call the last raise with AA. After the way he played the hand, I could most likely put him on QQ/KK/AA (KK being the most likely since I have AA), and by cold calling his last raise it looks like I have QQ or AK. IF I had AA and jammed, I would know that he is capable of getting away from QQ-KK (unlike most people online). By cold calling I give myself a better chance of getting all his chips at that stage of the tournament. (but also obviously open the door for a 2 outer).Interesting hand and discussion.

[Butcho22 0]

That sums it up nicely.After the strength Roothlus showed, Prty better have a very, very limited range of hands to come over the top there. I think Rooth is dead on to put him on the other two kings or AA at that stage in that tournament. Also, I really don't think Prty has a 'tight' image at all. It has more to do with the situation then Prty's image. Roothlus knows Prty isn't a moron, therefore he can narrow his range of hands far more then he could vs a random internet donkey.As for why would Prty push AA there if that is what he had: Roothlus opens UTG, indicating strength, or at least most of the time. Prty knows he is facing an UTG raise, and re-raises anyway, which 9/10 times (esp at this stage) means a premium hand. Now, Roothlus knows that Prty is probably not messing around, and yet still decides to re-raise. At this point, if I was Prty and I had AA vs most players, a jam is the obvious play. Every sign would lead you to belive that Roothlus is willing to call your jam, and by getting all the chips in pre-flop, you are not giving him a chance to get away from the hand if an ace flops (or any sort of board that might scare him away).The fact that it's Roothlus though, might lead me to cold call the last raise with AA. After the way he played the hand, I could most likely put him on QQ/KK/AA (KK being the most likely since I have AA), and by cold calling his last raise it looks like I have QQ or AK. IF I had AA and jammed, I would know that he is capable of getting away from QQ-KK (unlike most people online). By cold calling I give myself a better chance of getting all his chips at that stage of the tournament. (but also obviously open the door for a 2 outer).Interesting hand and discussion.

It's really not fair to group these two hands together...

[Bizzle 0]

Also, I really don't think Prty has a 'tight' image at all. It has more to do with the situation then Prty's image. Roothlus knows Prty isn't a moron, therefore he can narrow his range of hands far more then he could vs a random internet donkey.

Just quoting this because I wanted to be clear that I never said Prty was tight, I was more referring to the fact that his range is so ridiculously limited here. Basically, QFT.Nice post Pat.

[Butcho22 0]

Please Butcho, I don't let my ego get involved anymore, enlighten me. I'm just trying to have some dialogue, though I appreciate your condescending attitude. If you're response is that PPsux did in fact have KK here, I don't care.

okay...sorry for coming off like a ****.I just don't see how a player who1) isn't playing scared by playing out of his bankroll2) is heads up against an opponent he should know is capable of mixing up his play. would fold KK..IN A TOURNAMENTcash game for stacks, sure...lay it down

[PMJackson21 0]

It's really not fair to group these two hands together...

Well, when in the previous line I state that the range of hands for him from my perspective would be QQ/KK/AA, I would think I should stay consistent as I continue my thoughts. He obviously isn't going to fold AA to a jam, so that would leave....QQ and KK....In other words - it's a paragraph, not a sentence.

[Bizzle 0]

Well, when in the previous line I state that the range of hands for him from my perspective would be QQ/KK/AA, I would think I should stay consistent as I continue my thoughts. He obviously isn't going to fold AA to a jam, so that would leave....QQ and KK....In other words - it's a paragraph, not a sentence.

Cunning linguist, tournament master, nice guy extroardinare. Is there anything the man can't do?Patrick, be my baby's daddy.

[Butcho22 0]

Well, when in the previous line I state that the range of hands for him from my perspective would be QQ/KK/AA, I would think I should stay consistent as I continue my thoughts. He obviously isn't going to fold AA to a jam, so that would leave....QQ and KK....In other words - it's a paragraph, not a sentence.

I meant that it's MUCH easier to fold QQ then KK....agree?

[Royal_Tour 0]

That sums it up nicely.After the strength Roothlus showed, Prty better have a very, very limited range of hands to come over the top there. I think Rooth is dead on to put him on the other two kings or AA at that stage in that tournament. Also, I really don't think Prty has a 'tight' image at all. It has more to do with the situation then Prty's image. Roothlus knows Prty isn't a moron, therefore he can narrow his range of hands far more then he could vs a random internet donkey.As for why would Prty push AA there if that is what he had: Roothlus opens UTG, indicating strength, or at least most of the time. Prty knows he is facing an UTG raise, and re-raises anyway, which 9/10 times (esp at this stage) means a premium hand. Now, Roothlus knows that Prty is probably not messing around, and yet still decides to re-raise. At this point, if I was Prty and I had AA vs most players, a jam is the obvious play. Every sign would lead you to belive that Roothlus is willing to call your jam, and by getting all the chips in pre-flop, you are not giving him a chance to get away from the hand if an ace flops (or any sort of board that might scare him away).The fact that it's Roothlus though, might lead me to cold call the last raise with AA. After the way he played the hand, I could most likely put him on QQ/KK/AA (KK being the most likely since I have AA), and by cold calling his last raise it looks like I have QQ or AK. IF I had AA and jammed, I would know that he is capable of getting away from QQ-KK (unlike most people online). By cold calling I give myself a better chance of getting all his chips at that stage of the tournament. (but also obviously open the door for a 2 outer).Interesting hand and discussion.

I've seen situations just like this at limits over 200.00 buy in where hands like QQ and AK turn over after these types of plays.its easy to put PPsux on Aces, its very easy You just have to think, why?? But at the same time its also not easy to limit him to just Aces

[tskillz187 0]

I've seen situations just like this at limits over 200.00 buy in where hands like QQ and AK turn over after these types of plays.its easy to put PPsux on Aces, its very easy You just have to think, why?? But at the same time its also not easy to limit him to just Aces

I think the argument here is that those players aren't playing correctly. PPsux can't push QQ or AK, because it is too likely his opponent has KK or AA because his opponent is a very good player. Maybe other players at the 200+ are pushing these hands but it is too early in the tourney to be coming over the top of a respected player, who is UTG and reraised you, all in with AK or QQ. I think we are limiting him to just KK and AA not just Aces.

okay...sorry for coming off like a ****.I just don't see how a player who1) isn't playing scared by playing out of his bankroll2) is heads up against an opponent he should know is capable of mixing up his play. would fold KK..IN A TOURNAMENTcash game for stacks, sure...lay it down

This is all just my opinion here, but I think I'm right! It isn't a matter of mixing up your play here. It's not like hes bluffing at a pot when there are cards out and he senses weakness. PPSux should never be pushing over the top of this raise against Roothlus without KK or AA. It would be bad poker, not predictable poker.

[PMJackson21 0]

I meant that it's MUCH easier to fold QQ then KK....agree?

Without a doubt QQ is an easy fold here...but at the same time, I think it is much less likely that is what Roothlus has. I don't think either player would play QQ that fast in this spot.If Roothlus has QQ, I don't think he re-raises. He would probably flat call Prty's raise and see a flop. If the board came rags, he might give Prty all his chips, but I think Roothlus is quite capable of getting away from it. If Prty had QQ, I wouldn't be surprised if he just flat called Roothlus's UTG raise. If he did decide to raise and Roothlus made the same re-raise, I would think Prty would fold QQ rather then go all-in over the top of him. Calling and seeing a flop is an option, but you would have to know that you are behind.

[tskillz187 0]

Without a doubt QQ is an easy fold here...but at the same time, I think it is much less likely that is what Roothlus has. I don't think either player would play QQ that fast in this spot.If Roothlus has QQ, I don't think he re-raises. He would probably flat call Prty's raise and see a flop. If the board came rags, he might give Prty all his chips, but I think Roothlus is quite capable of getting away from it. If Prty had QQ, I wouldn't be surprised if he just flat called Roothlus's UTG raise. If he did decide to raise and Roothlus made the same re-raise, I would think Prty would fold QQ rather then go all-in over the top of him. Calling and seeing a flop is an option, but you would have to know that you are behind.

Given that you think its unlikely Roothlus had QQ here, what do you think of PPsux push? This is what I was trying to get at earlier, I think Roothlus reraise says KK or AA, with a smallll chance of QQ. So I still agree with PPsux push, but I think it is close.

[PMJackson21 0]

I've seen situations just like this at limits over 200.00 buy in where hands like QQ and AK turn over after these types of plays.its easy to put PPsux on Aces, its very easy You just have to think, why?? But at the same time its also not easy to limit him to just Aces

If Prty made this play, after that action, against that player acting from UTG, in that tournament (both buy in and structure), with anything less then KK, I'd be extremely disappointed in him. :-)Roothlus defined his hand for Prty pretty clearly. AK no good, JJ no good, QQ no good. To be honest, I'd be unsure if my KK was any good if I was Prty at that juncture as well.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Alright, all of this arguments and debates has struck another cord with me.You guys all vouche and say PPsux is good, has respect, only pushes with AAKK, and know roothlus is a good player, and thats why PPsux can only push with AAor KK cuz he assumes roothus has AA or KK, but at the same time roothlus is thinking PPsux would only push with aces.Now heres the real question that only elite minds can grasp. You assume a push means AA or KK, what if he just calls?, is it this textbook in these 300. buy ins that a call means QQ, AK or worse?, or does he fold in this spot with QQ facing a 300 raise into a 900.00 pot? So with this in mind, PPsux puts roothlus on KK or worse maybe? and roothus puts PPsux on KK, or AA,By way of strategy and skill, with AA, it would be in PPsux best interest to simply call, knowing roothlus is on KK, QQ JJ, maybe AK. and will extract more chips post flop.assuming PPsux only pushes preflop because he wants a call. (which he would be stupid to not want with KK or AA)so, Roothlus and some of you, should have had this entire thought process in your heads at the time, you're good enough to put PPsux on AA or KK, you should also be good enough to assume if he only calls he has AK or QQ and worse right? i mean, You claim he wont make this type of push with anything less than Kings, so does he fold to the re-raise if he holds AK or QQ?

[PMJackson21 0]

Alright, all of this arguments and debates has struck another cord with me.You guys all vouche and say PPsux is good, has respect, only pushes with AAKK, and know roothlus is a good player, and thats why PPsux can only push with AAor KK cuz he assumes roothus has AA or KK, but at the same time roothlus is thinking PPsux would only push with aces.Now heres the real question that only elite minds can grasp. You assume a push means AA or KK, what if he just calls?, is it this textbook in these 300. buy ins that a call means QQ, AK or worse?, or does he fold in this spot with QQ facing a 300 raise into a 900.00 pot? So with this in mind, PPsux puts roothlus on KK or worse maybe? and roothus puts PPsux on KK, or AA,By way of strategy and skill, with AA, it would be in PPsux best interest to simply call, knowing roothlus is on KK, QQ JJ, maybe AK. and will extract more chips post flop.assuming PPsux only pushes preflop because he wants a call. (which he would be stupid to not want with KK or AA)so, Roothlus and some of you, should have had this entire thought process in your heads at the time, you're good enough to put PPsux on AA or KK, you should also be good enough to assume if he only calls he has AK or QQ and worse right? i mean, You claim he wont make this type of push with anything less than Kings, so does he fold to the re-raise if he holds AK or QQ?

No, Prty only calling could mean a variety of hands, including KK and AA. In my original post, I said I would probably just flat call at that stage against Roothlus. "The fact that it's Roothlus though, might lead me to cold call the last raise with AA. After the way he played the hand, I could most likely put him on QQ/KK/AA (KK being the most likely since I have AA), and by cold calling his last raise it looks like I have QQ or AK. IF I had AA and jammed, I would know that he is capable of getting away from QQ-KK (unlike most people online). By cold calling I give myself a better chance of getting all his chips at that stage of the tournament. (but also obviously open the door for a 2 outer)."

[PrtyPSux 0]

That sums it up nicely. Roothlus doesnt know Prty is a moron, therefore he can narrow his range of hands far more then he could vs a random internet donkey.

fyp

[PMJackson21 0]

fyp

Shhhhhhh......You are making my job as your publicity agent so much harder!

[tskillz187 0]

A Party smooth call could be so much. Roothlus raise is not big enough to push him off too many hands IMO. Though I dont remember chipstacks, PPsux can reraise on the button with a variety of hands, but he cannot push to a reraise with anything other than KK or AA. Given the small raise that roothlus threw out there I expect PPsux could call and have 22-AA and AK-AJ suited.

[Roothlus 0]

Yo. First post here, PMJackson told me about the thread that stemmed from my post so I figured I'd drop a line.The only thing I could've done differently was just call PP's reraise but I felt it was crucial for me to find out where I was at. When he hit the time bank I felt he was just trying to rope me along. That was probably the only thing I could've looked at to sway my decision but I had basically made my mind up if he came over the top.Also, PP could've smooth called my reraise. But at this point I have him on either AA, QQ and maybe the other KK. Once we take it to the flop, it just confuses things even more for both him and I. He might even lose the pot to me if an A or Q flops. Who knows? We could both get tricky and decide to try to get the other off the hand.Now, if I do have AA in PPs situation I almost ALWAYS shove AA to the re-reraise. I now have enough info to know that my opponent does in fact have a monster. If I know my opponent has the ability to fold KK there, then so be it because having the ability and actually doing it are two entirely different things. The flop might not even get me many more chips. If I hit my Ace I'm surely not going to get much more. There are so many possiblities once you take a flop and for that reason I'd rather get the chips in pre.Here's another example of why I will shove my big hands preflop sometimes to give away as little info as possible once I have a strong read on a player's hand. In a WPT Bellagio double shootout Scott Fishman(emptyseat88) raised 4x 2nd utg at 15/30 with a 1400 chips stack. I had 1700 chips and picked up KK. I decided he won't give up a +EV situation if he thinks it's a coinflip and he has the edge. What gave me the info was the 4x raise. I figured why not take a shot and make it look like AK because his range is around 99, 1010, JJ, QQ and maybe AK or AQ. Anyways, he thought for a sec and called with JJ and went busto.If you can ever get enough info on the players hand you should always shove and give them as little info as possible. That's why people play sets so fast if they think someone has a big pair and that's why a shove is never a bad play with AA.Lengthy first post, I sorta went off on a tangent but it comes with the territory of being ADD Hope I provided some more insight.